Maybe I’m overly idealistic when it comes to software but, IMHO, a software (especially a browser) should be the least distractive possible. My point about modals was about feature announcement pop-ups (“Now you can do Y… Click on Z menu to get into Y”), the ones which Mozilla Firefox explicitly mentioned within the confirmation dialog, as well as the said confirmation dialog which, as far as I could find about, is one-sided, for there are no confirmation dialog to the other action, which is to activate the clankers.
The ideal workflow, to me, is as follows: the user launches the browser software, the main UI opens minimalistically listing the most frequently accessed websites and the pinned bookmarks, the user clicks on some shortcut or types in some URL, then the browser fetches the network content from said website, parses it, fetches whatever else needs to be fetched for the specific website, renders it visible on the screen, then let the user interact with the page as they please, without a MS Clippy-like behavior of reminding the user “It looks like this page has links, you can summarize them using a clanker” on a frequent basis.
Lynx, for example, is the perfect example of this, it’s not an utopia I’m imagining: I type lynx and I press enter, then Lynx executes and brings its TUI, then I press g and type the URL of a website, and it fetches and does what needs to be done in order to bring up the website to the TUI. No cluttered interface except for the short list of keyboard shortcuts at the bottom which don’t require user interaction nor disturb the UX. That’s KISS approach.
When a browser has a MS Clippy-like behavior and, most importantly, when a browser brings potentially unwanted features turned on by default, whose opt-out requires the user to go through some sort of gymnastics while the usage of said feature is asymmetrically easy (seemingly no “confirm you want to use the clanker? The clanker may have access to the following: page content, currently open tabs, credentials on the page, etc…” like the opt-out confirmation dialog lists exhaustively about “enhancements that will be unavailable while the user opts out of Firefox AI enhancements”), again: perhaps I’m being too pedantic but, to me, it smells, it looks, it behaves and it whispers like a dark pattern.
Hi Deamon, don’t get me wrong, modals in general are bad and it is a “last resource”. However, I agree with the solution of Firefox’s UX designer, asking for a confirmation before turning on/off the AI functionalities (as it is a disruptive action that affect overall users XD). We may argue that maybe it needed to be done via a full page… ? Or maybe not using a “switch” in the first place. Anyway, all good. It is nice to see people with this kind of concerns 👍
asking for a confirmation before turning on/off the AI functionalities
The thing is, there doesn’t seem to be confirmation before turning clankers on (at least I didn’t find screenshots in this regard), but there is such a confirmation before turning the whole thing off (that is, from the default-on state Mozilla pushed unto the software upon updating/installing).
If both situations involved double confirmation dialog in a symmetrical manner (“are you sure you want to proceed with activating this feature?” coexisting with “are you sure you want to opt-off from this feature?”), that would be fair. Pretty annoying, but fair. But this fairness doesn’t seem to be happening, no confirmation dialog seems to exist for actually using the feature. The only thing similar to a “confirmation” during further usage of “AI Enhancements” would be the authentication step from whatever clanker was chosen from the suspiciously-biased list of clankers (ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Llama, Mistral; no non-Western options such as Qwen or DeepSeek, for example).
as it is a disruptive action that affect overall users
How disruptive would be turning off a feature that is far from being essential to browsing (and, in practice, may end up rendering the whole browsing experience worse with inaccurate summarization and potential vulnerabilities (prompt injection, remote code execution, etc), produced by pieces of software explicitly labeled as “it may produce inaccuracies”)?
Not to say how, as I mentioned initially, the entire premise of bringing it as default-on with now the added “right” to “opt-off” is, itself, non-consensual relationship, insofar the user didn’t seek it by themselves. Clankers would be a nice feature for some niches and use cases (again: I myself use LLMs, but it stems from my own decision to do so, not because it was pushed onto me; something I opted-in), but it should be voluntarily sought, installed and turned on by the user as they please, not as “default-on” option.
Anyway, all good. It is nice to see people with this kind of concerns
Sure, no problems, that’s reciprocal, we’re good! Throughout my exchanges in this entire thread, I tried to keep it respectful (at least when it comes to the debate and my peers; of course I’m fiercely criticizing Mozilla Corporation, because they were once the ones who “will never sell your data”) and trying to debate the idea and not the peer’s person.
My concerns, in the end of the day, are just an attempt to advocate for the total, non-negotiable autonomy and Free Will (as far as Free Will can get in a deterministic cosmic existence) of users, far from just my own; and this involves denouncing potential corporate biases whenever a corporation brings up another brick in the already-tall wall of enshittification, naming and shaming corporations for their greedy corporate behavior.
Maybe you got lucky and the routine which triggers said pop-ups didn’t happen yet, doesn’t mean that “that doesn’t happen”. Again: Firefox literally mentions pop-ups about “AI enhancement” features, it’s not something I’m confabulating:
Block AI enhancements? You won’t see new or current AI enhancements in Firefox, or pop-ups about them.
It’s ipsis literis from the Firefox opt-out confirmation dialog. They wouldn’t mention said pop-ups if they weren’t to happen.
I’m out. There is no point taking with someone that repeatedly lies to try to support their point. Look, I’m against the majority of LLM usage and implementation as well, and I’d rather most of it not be in firefox as well, but:
You keep making up things firefox does that it doesn’t. I’m not even convinced you’ve used it
You keep talking about UX and dark patterns but you’re obviously making it to as you go
Basing conversation on obvious falsehoods is a waste of time
(And, oh, as a double-twist, the following screenshot proves I do have Firefox, even though I use Waterfox as my daily driver; here I’m using Firefox because my GitHub account is logged in in there, and to dismantle your ad hominem that “I’m not even convinced you’ve used it [Firefox]” )
But, you’re right, there’s no purpose in continuing this debate. Enjoy the new soon-to-be “Agentic Browser” Mozilla FAIrefox!
@skamu@mastodon.uno @technology@lemmy.world @Feyd@programming.dev
Maybe I’m overly idealistic when it comes to software but, IMHO, a software (especially a browser) should be the least distractive possible. My point about modals was about feature announcement pop-ups (“Now you can do Y… Click on Z menu to get into Y”), the ones which Mozilla Firefox explicitly mentioned within the confirmation dialog, as well as the said confirmation dialog which, as far as I could find about, is one-sided, for there are no confirmation dialog to the other action, which is to activate the clankers.
The ideal workflow, to me, is as follows: the user launches the browser software, the main UI opens minimalistically listing the most frequently accessed websites and the pinned bookmarks, the user clicks on some shortcut or types in some URL, then the browser fetches the network content from said website, parses it, fetches whatever else needs to be fetched for the specific website, renders it visible on the screen, then let the user interact with the page as they please, without a MS Clippy-like behavior of reminding the user “It looks like this page has links, you can summarize them using a clanker” on a frequent basis.
Lynx, for example, is the perfect example of this, it’s not an utopia I’m imagining: I type
lynxand I press enter, then Lynx executes and brings its TUI, then I press g and type the URL of a website, and it fetches and does what needs to be done in order to bring up the website to the TUI. No cluttered interface except for the short list of keyboard shortcuts at the bottom which don’t require user interaction nor disturb the UX. That’s KISS approach.When a browser has a MS Clippy-like behavior and, most importantly, when a browser brings potentially unwanted features turned on by default, whose opt-out requires the user to go through some sort of gymnastics while the usage of said feature is asymmetrically easy (seemingly no “confirm you want to use the clanker? The clanker may have access to the following: page content, currently open tabs, credentials on the page, etc…” like the opt-out confirmation dialog lists exhaustively about “enhancements that will be unavailable while the user opts out of Firefox AI enhancements”), again: perhaps I’m being too pedantic but, to me, it smells, it looks, it behaves and it whispers like a dark pattern.
@dsilverz @technology @Feyd
Hi Deamon, don’t get me wrong, modals in general are bad and it is a “last resource”. However, I agree with the solution of Firefox’s UX designer, asking for a confirmation before turning on/off the AI functionalities (as it is a disruptive action that affect overall users XD). We may argue that maybe it needed to be done via a full page… ? Or maybe not using a “switch” in the first place. Anyway, all good. It is nice to see people with this kind of concerns 👍
@skamu@mastodon.uno @technology@lemmy.world @Feyd@programming.dev
The thing is, there doesn’t seem to be confirmation before turning clankers on (at least I didn’t find screenshots in this regard), but there is such a confirmation before turning the whole thing off (that is, from the default-on state Mozilla pushed unto the software upon updating/installing).
If both situations involved double confirmation dialog in a symmetrical manner (“are you sure you want to proceed with activating this feature?” coexisting with “are you sure you want to opt-off from this feature?”), that would be fair. Pretty annoying, but fair. But this fairness doesn’t seem to be happening, no confirmation dialog seems to exist for actually using the feature. The only thing similar to a “confirmation” during further usage of “AI Enhancements” would be the authentication step from whatever clanker was chosen from the suspiciously-biased list of clankers (ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Llama, Mistral; no non-Western options such as Qwen or DeepSeek, for example).
How disruptive would be turning off a feature that is far from being essential to browsing (and, in practice, may end up rendering the whole browsing experience worse with inaccurate summarization and potential vulnerabilities (prompt injection, remote code execution, etc), produced by pieces of software explicitly labeled as “it may produce inaccuracies”)?
Not to say how, as I mentioned initially, the entire premise of bringing it as default-on with now the added “right” to “opt-off” is, itself, non-consensual relationship, insofar the user didn’t seek it by themselves. Clankers would be a nice feature for some niches and use cases (again: I myself use LLMs, but it stems from my own decision to do so, not because it was pushed onto me; something I opted-in), but it should be voluntarily sought, installed and turned on by the user as they please, not as “default-on” option.
Sure, no problems, that’s reciprocal, we’re good! Throughout my exchanges in this entire thread, I tried to keep it respectful (at least when it comes to the debate and my peers; of course I’m fiercely criticizing Mozilla Corporation, because they were once the ones who “will never sell your data”) and trying to debate the idea and not the peer’s person.
My concerns, in the end of the day, are just an attempt to advocate for the total, non-negotiable autonomy and Free Will (as far as Free Will can get in a deterministic cosmic existence) of users, far from just my own; and this involves denouncing potential corporate biases whenever a corporation brings up another brick in the already-tall wall of enshittification, naming and shaming corporations for their greedy corporate behavior.
That doesn’t happen. I don’t recall firefox ever popping up a modal while I’m browsing.
@Feyd@programming.dev @technology@lemmy.world
Maybe you got lucky and the routine which triggers said pop-ups didn’t happen yet, doesn’t mean that “that doesn’t happen”. Again: Firefox literally mentions pop-ups about “AI enhancement” features, it’s not something I’m confabulating:
It’s ipsis literis from the Firefox opt-out confirmation dialog. They wouldn’t mention said pop-ups if they weren’t to happen.
I’m out. There is no point taking with someone that repeatedly lies to try to support their point. Look, I’m against the majority of LLM usage and implementation as well, and I’d rather most of it not be in firefox as well, but:
@Feyd@programming.dev @technology@lemmy.world
What?! Lying?! It’s literally in Firefox official git repo, for Goddess’ sake!!
https://github.com/mozilla-firefox/firefox/blob/4bc9c2f9b62e7cb44894d581c8171edbf0f7e27f/browser/locales/en-US/browser/preferences/preferences.ftl#L2370C132-L2370C150
(And, oh, as a double-twist, the following screenshot proves I do have Firefox, even though I use Waterfox as my daily driver; here I’m using Firefox because my GitHub account is logged in in there, and to dismantle your ad hominem that “I’m not even convinced you’ve used it [Firefox]” )
But, you’re right, there’s no purpose in continuing this debate. Enjoy the new soon-to-be “Agentic Browser” Mozilla FAIrefox!