Aren’t you forgetting about the Black Panthers and the “violent” side of the civil rights movement? Violence is just a tool, it can be used for good or evil. And as much as I’d prefer to see the world improve without violence, I think any movement that gets too powerful will be forced to adopt violent countermeasures as a response to violent attacks from the ruling class.
No, the Black Panthers were not a terrorist group and were far less violent than a typical biker gang. Violence is not a tool of good. Defending yourself with proportional violence is an unfortunate reality that people are faced with. This is more about survival though and not about advancing rights.
I think you are romanticizing violence. Please explain how violence has advanced the cause of human rights. When has violence solved our social problems.
It is about survival, but it absolutely can also be about advancing human rights. What about the violence used by slaves to overthrow their masters in the Haitian Revolution? What about the violence used to end the Holocaust? What about the violence in the French and October revolutions, which resulted in the creations of completely new economic systems? All of these resulted in an advancement of human rights in some way or another.
You bring up a great example of the Haitian revolution which is the only truly revolutionary revolution in my assessment. The end results of this revolution are disappointing to say the least. One could argue this is more about how other nations shunned Haiti due to their violence. While violence solved one problem it created another. This is actually pretty complex subject so I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.
Ending the mass murder of people was great but even though violence stopped the slaughter it didn’t stop genocide. Violence can perhaps stop an act, but it can’t stop a behavior. Certainly not one that is itself violent in nature. Violence is the cause, not really the solution.
The French Revolution ended up killing far more commoners than anything else. It is a poor example of a revolution that amounts to one wealthy class taking out another wealthy class and using the citizens as fodder. It gave birth to a truly violent fascist nation that has gone on to produce weapons of destruction that currently kill civilians around the globe.
I am not as concerned with rhetoric as much as I am with the results of policy. I think you perhaps view humans rights as progressive force, but I do not. Things don’t get better without putting a lot of work into it and currently no one is doing this and instead are often resorting to or aiding violence.
TBH I don’t know much about Haiti but I’m pretty sure that the revolution let former Haitian slaves be better off, even if only for a little. It also demonstrated that it was indeed possible for slaves to revolt successfully against their masters.
Violence is the cause, not really the solution.
Well, it was both the cause and the solution, wasn’t it? WW2 did end Fascism in Europe, at least till the conditions that caused Fascism started reappearing around the world.
The reason I bring up the French Revolution is because it signifies the downfall of the aristocracy and the progress out of monarchism into capitalism. Not saying that France became a utopia afterwards, but it did represent societal progress in a way. What exactly do you mean by me viewing human rights as a progressive force?
Well the other half of the story is how Haiti ended up. There is a good discussion on why it happened the way it did. As I mentioned, Haiti was shunned because of its violence and due to this never economically grew the way it should have. Needless to say Haiti has one of the highest income gaps nowadays.
Fascism was never defeated, that was propaganda. Fascism was spread around the world by the US who has always been a fascist nation since before there was even a word for it. The US did this infamously with the European Axis powers pre-World War II.
The French revolution did not eliminate the wealthy, it just helped change hands of power at the cost of countless citizens lives. Obviously there is a lot of propaganda here meant to smooth over the horrors of what actually happened (hint: a lot of commoners decapitated).
What do I mean viewing human rights as a progressive force. Simply put a progressive view is that things are getting better. This is of course subjective but the concept I am getting at is things don’t actually get better because time passes. In fact, things can and will get worse.
There is more slavery now than at anytime in history. Try again. Violence didn’t solve it.
Most of the violence happened against the workers. Try re-reading history. It was ultimately the wealthy deciding to play along not worker violence forcing them to. Violence didn’t solve it.
You are seriously saying the terrorists that went on to commit genocide and spread fascism around the world were the good guys!? Violence didn’t solve it, it created it.
Aren’t you forgetting about the Black Panthers and the “violent” side of the civil rights movement? Violence is just a tool, it can be used for good or evil. And as much as I’d prefer to see the world improve without violence, I think any movement that gets too powerful will be forced to adopt violent countermeasures as a response to violent attacks from the ruling class.
No, the Black Panthers were not a terrorist group and were far less violent than a typical biker gang. Violence is not a tool of good. Defending yourself with proportional violence is an unfortunate reality that people are faced with. This is more about survival though and not about advancing rights.
I think you are romanticizing violence. Please explain how violence has advanced the cause of human rights. When has violence solved our social problems.
It is about survival, but it absolutely can also be about advancing human rights. What about the violence used by slaves to overthrow their masters in the Haitian Revolution? What about the violence used to end the Holocaust? What about the violence in the French and October revolutions, which resulted in the creations of completely new economic systems? All of these resulted in an advancement of human rights in some way or another.
You bring up a great example of the Haitian revolution which is the only truly revolutionary revolution in my assessment. The end results of this revolution are disappointing to say the least. One could argue this is more about how other nations shunned Haiti due to their violence. While violence solved one problem it created another. This is actually pretty complex subject so I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.
Ending the mass murder of people was great but even though violence stopped the slaughter it didn’t stop genocide. Violence can perhaps stop an act, but it can’t stop a behavior. Certainly not one that is itself violent in nature. Violence is the cause, not really the solution.
The French Revolution ended up killing far more commoners than anything else. It is a poor example of a revolution that amounts to one wealthy class taking out another wealthy class and using the citizens as fodder. It gave birth to a truly violent fascist nation that has gone on to produce weapons of destruction that currently kill civilians around the globe.
I am not as concerned with rhetoric as much as I am with the results of policy. I think you perhaps view humans rights as progressive force, but I do not. Things don’t get better without putting a lot of work into it and currently no one is doing this and instead are often resorting to or aiding violence.
TBH I don’t know much about Haiti but I’m pretty sure that the revolution let former Haitian slaves be better off, even if only for a little. It also demonstrated that it was indeed possible for slaves to revolt successfully against their masters.
Well, it was both the cause and the solution, wasn’t it? WW2 did end Fascism in Europe, at least till the conditions that caused Fascism started reappearing around the world.
The reason I bring up the French Revolution is because it signifies the downfall of the aristocracy and the progress out of monarchism into capitalism. Not saying that France became a utopia afterwards, but it did represent societal progress in a way. What exactly do you mean by me viewing human rights as a progressive force?
Well the other half of the story is how Haiti ended up. There is a good discussion on why it happened the way it did. As I mentioned, Haiti was shunned because of its violence and due to this never economically grew the way it should have. Needless to say Haiti has one of the highest income gaps nowadays.
Fascism was never defeated, that was propaganda. Fascism was spread around the world by the US who has always been a fascist nation since before there was even a word for it. The US did this infamously with the European Axis powers pre-World War II.
The French revolution did not eliminate the wealthy, it just helped change hands of power at the cost of countless citizens lives. Obviously there is a lot of propaganda here meant to smooth over the horrors of what actually happened (hint: a lot of commoners decapitated).
What do I mean viewing human rights as a progressive force. Simply put a progressive view is that things are getting better. This is of course subjective but the concept I am getting at is things don’t actually get better because time passes. In fact, things can and will get worse.
The abolition of Slavery
The workers rights movement <— Those guys are the reason we have any weekends at all
The violent overthrow of monarchs by liberals
The only reason we have it so good in terms of life quality is because our ancestors put their lives on the line for our rights
There is more slavery now than at anytime in history. Try again. Violence didn’t solve it.
Most of the violence happened against the workers. Try re-reading history. It was ultimately the wealthy deciding to play along not worker violence forcing them to. Violence didn’t solve it.
You are seriously saying the terrorists that went on to commit genocide and spread fascism around the world were the good guys!? Violence didn’t solve it, it created it.
Keep reaching.