Let me ask you one simple question: do you believe that a church which throughout its history has enabled its preachers to molest children, can truly be called Christian?
The Bible says that true Christian’s are followers of Christ, not just those who claim to be, then do the opposite behind closed doors. Catholics are Christian in name only.
Without question. Corruption and abuse within institutions is epidemic throughout human history. Child sexual abuse runs lousy in religious institutions. The youth-pastor problem is pervasive.
If you want to create a church, and figure out how to keep its elders free of vice and corruption, I applaud you. But I don’t think you’re going to succeed, if ever your ministry gains any significant following.
A more realistic ambition (if your congregation is more than a dozen folk) is for absolute transparency. A bigger problem in the religious sector is the incentive by ministries to cover up scandals, and silence victims in order to preserve the reputation of the institution. (And predators looking for a hunting ground often seek positions of authority in religious institutions because of this trait.) If your church had the policy of reporting wrongdoing to the authorities and to the press, quickly and openly, then, yes, your ministry will have a lower rate of misconduct, but it will appear to be more corrupt, because of your sunshine rules. Kinda like Florida.
The primary reason the Catholic church is so ridden with corruption and scandal is because it’s big and it’s old. It’s the largest Christian denomination, and it’s been around the longest.
Don’t think this doesn’t happen to non-Christian religious institutions as well. Unchecked power breeds abuse of it, and scandals run thick in temples, in mosques, in secular community centers. The larger the institution the worse the entrenchment.
Don’t think this doesn’t happen to non-Christian religious institutions as well
Absolutely, and that’s all evidence that the church of Christ is not with them people either. You must understand: the true church of Jesus Christ does not have molesting preachers. Try as you may, you simply won’t get that conduct wrapped up in anything even remotely Christ-like.
The primary reason the Catholic church is so ridden with corruption and scandal is because it’s big and it’s old. It’s the largest Christian denomination, and it’s been around the longest
It’s not quite the oldest, but it is old I agree. But the bigger point about your statement there is, they are big — they have over a billion members. What did Christ say about the number of people who would be saved?
Luke 11:
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Also Romans 9:27: “ 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved”
The Bible explicitly says a tiny number of people shall be saved, yet the Catholic Church has over a billion. That is not consistent with what the scripture says (and don’t forget: 8 people survived Noah’s Ark, out of millions or possibly billions) that’s all the more evidence that the Catholic Church is not the church of Christ (combined with their history of murder, rape, corruption, greed, lies and other sins). And if they’re not of Christ, they are not true Christians (christian in name only). I’m not having a go at what you posted, I’m just elaborating that that’s just my view.
If you want to create a church, and figure out how to keep its elders free of vice and corruption, I applaud you. But I don’t think you’re going to succeed, if ever your ministry gains any significant following.
Only God creates his church really. Plus, it wouldn’t matter: both Luther and Erasmus agreed that the Catholic Church was corrupt, but they couldn’t agree on how to fix the issue (they couldn’t agree with certain aspects of theology either, but that’s a whole other debate).
On a side note, I forgot to ask: you said you’re not Christian, may I ask are you atheist or do you just follow another religion? (E.g. Judaism, Hinduism, etc.)?
The true church of Jesus Christ does not have molesting preachers.
If that were the case then there is no true Church of Jesus Christ. Full Stop. Your definition excludes allowance for human nature, and the corrupting influence of authority.
Anyway, all your bible passages are meaningless. The white Christian nationalist movement serves as an example of what Dan McClellan observes, that the bible is only used for the prooftext to uphold social hierarchy. The amount of care we see for the sick, support for the impoverished, and regard for the stranger in modern ministries is nauseatingly slight, even though they’re central themes in the bible.
It not only highlights that the texts are a historical work, not inerrant, not univocal, and not divinely inspired. But that they can be reinterpreted to say anything to any purpose. And they are.
And if we presume the omniscience of God, then They knew in advance the scripture-church model of messaging would fail, and would choose something different that worked.
They’re only ‘meaningless’ to you personally because you’re clearly an atheist. I’m not wasting my time with atheists, they’re sadly more often than not a lost cause, and certainly put no value in scripture
[Scripture is] only ‘meaningless’ to you personally because you’re clearly an atheist.
You should know better. Fundamentalist faiths like to veer away from the beatitudes, and from anything that challenges the hoarding of wealth and power. Post-enlightenment Christians like to avoid the large sections that discuss and openly endorse human slavery, or massacres of villages to the last child and livestock. For most Christians there are large segments of the bible that they disregard entirely, because it doesn’t fit into their own understanding of social norms. There’s a Buddhist saying, Everyone is a biblical scholar when it comes to passages they don’t like.
And then there are atheists who were Christians and deconstructed. Biblical passages have quite a lot of meaning to them. There are a lot of deconstructed Christians who create content on social media. And they talk about the bible and what it means to them.
My own path was more meandering, and my own ethics were gained by deliberation and reading what moral philosophers have figured out. In my experience, societal values are not revealed, they’re constructed.
Atheists aren’t antagonistic to you. At least this one is not. I anticipate you will get exactly the same salvation, the same redemption, the same afterlife as I will. I see that you live in the same cinematic universe as I do and are subject to the same physical laws. I see that there is no justice, no kindness except for that which we collectively decide to create for ourselves. Ultimately, we all go to the same grave. And I anticipate neither of us will be disappointed.
It’s your rival ministries that believe their congregation is blessed by fiat, and yours is profane, also by fiat. It is they who believe good and evil are binary, the paint on chess pieces. That once they determine someone is in league with the Devil, they are free to do anything they want to them. And they do. So, yeah, I am concerned this is the model that reflects your beliefs as well. I hope not.
The old and new testaments are meaningful to me the same way the Koran is meaningful to you. And Christian faith is no more or less valid than Muslim faith, or Shinto faith, or Hindu faith. I believe only in what I see, what I understand to be true. What is consistent with my experiences. And yes, it means having to confront that I am not special or chosen. Nor are any of us. In the zombie apocalypse, we’re all just zombies.
Though, if you have to be Christian, perhaps you should consider being Universalist. They, at least, are optimistic about the nature of humanity.
The Bible explicitly says a tiny number of people shall be saved, yet the Catholic Church has over a billion. That is not consistent with what the scripture says (and don’t forget: 8 people survived Noah’s Ark, out of millions or possibly billions) that’s all the more evidence that the Catholic Church is not the church of Christ
Which denomination is the correct size to be the real Church of Christ? I’m assuming it’s the one you follow?
Nope, didn’t see that. Though I did see your comment about not bothering with atheists, so surely you’ve got some sort of belief system. Something you came up with on your own?
I do understand your point, I just don’t agree.
Let me ask you one simple question: do you believe that a church which throughout its history has enabled its preachers to molest children, can truly be called Christian?
The Bible says that true Christian’s are followers of Christ, not just those who claim to be, then do the opposite behind closed doors. Catholics are Christian in name only.
Without question. Corruption and abuse within institutions is epidemic throughout human history. Child sexual abuse runs lousy in religious institutions. The youth-pastor problem is pervasive.
If you want to create a church, and figure out how to keep its elders free of vice and corruption, I applaud you. But I don’t think you’re going to succeed, if ever your ministry gains any significant following.
A more realistic ambition (if your congregation is more than a dozen folk) is for absolute transparency. A bigger problem in the religious sector is the incentive by ministries to cover up scandals, and silence victims in order to preserve the reputation of the institution. (And predators looking for a hunting ground often seek positions of authority in religious institutions because of this trait.) If your church had the policy of reporting wrongdoing to the authorities and to the press, quickly and openly, then, yes, your ministry will have a lower rate of misconduct, but it will appear to be more corrupt, because of your sunshine rules. Kinda like Florida.
The primary reason the Catholic church is so ridden with corruption and scandal is because it’s big and it’s old. It’s the largest Christian denomination, and it’s been around the longest.
Don’t think this doesn’t happen to non-Christian religious institutions as well. Unchecked power breeds abuse of it, and scandals run thick in temples, in mosques, in secular community centers. The larger the institution the worse the entrenchment.
Absolutely, and that’s all evidence that the church of Christ is not with them people either. You must understand: the true church of Jesus Christ does not have molesting preachers. Try as you may, you simply won’t get that conduct wrapped up in anything even remotely Christ-like.
It’s not quite the oldest, but it is old I agree. But the bigger point about your statement there is, they are big — they have over a billion members. What did Christ say about the number of people who would be saved?
Luke 11:
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Also Romans 9:27: “ 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved”
The Bible explicitly says a tiny number of people shall be saved, yet the Catholic Church has over a billion. That is not consistent with what the scripture says (and don’t forget: 8 people survived Noah’s Ark, out of millions or possibly billions) that’s all the more evidence that the Catholic Church is not the church of Christ (combined with their history of murder, rape, corruption, greed, lies and other sins). And if they’re not of Christ, they are not true Christians (christian in name only). I’m not having a go at what you posted, I’m just elaborating that that’s just my view.
Only God creates his church really. Plus, it wouldn’t matter: both Luther and Erasmus agreed that the Catholic Church was corrupt, but they couldn’t agree on how to fix the issue (they couldn’t agree with certain aspects of theology either, but that’s a whole other debate).
On a side note, I forgot to ask: you said you’re not Christian, may I ask are you atheist or do you just follow another religion? (E.g. Judaism, Hinduism, etc.)?
The true church of Jesus Christ does not have molesting preachers.
If that were the case then there is no true Church of Jesus Christ. Full Stop. Your definition excludes allowance for human nature, and the corrupting influence of authority.
Anyway, all your bible passages are meaningless. The white Christian nationalist movement serves as an example of what Dan McClellan observes, that the bible is only used for the prooftext to uphold social hierarchy. The amount of care we see for the sick, support for the impoverished, and regard for the stranger in modern ministries is nauseatingly slight, even though they’re central themes in the bible.
It not only highlights that the texts are a historical work, not inerrant, not univocal, and not divinely inspired. But that they can be reinterpreted to say anything to any purpose. And they are.
And if we presume the omniscience of God, then They knew in advance the scripture-church model of messaging would fail, and would choose something different that worked.
They’re only ‘meaningless’ to you personally because you’re clearly an atheist. I’m not wasting my time with atheists, they’re sadly more often than not a lost cause, and certainly put no value in scripture
[Scripture is] only ‘meaningless’ to you personally because you’re clearly an atheist.
You should know better. Fundamentalist faiths like to veer away from the beatitudes, and from anything that challenges the hoarding of wealth and power. Post-enlightenment Christians like to avoid the large sections that discuss and openly endorse human slavery, or massacres of villages to the last child and livestock. For most Christians there are large segments of the bible that they disregard entirely, because it doesn’t fit into their own understanding of social norms. There’s a Buddhist saying, Everyone is a biblical scholar when it comes to passages they don’t like.
And then there are atheists who were Christians and deconstructed. Biblical passages have quite a lot of meaning to them. There are a lot of deconstructed Christians who create content on social media. And they talk about the bible and what it means to them.
My own path was more meandering, and my own ethics were gained by deliberation and reading what moral philosophers have figured out. In my experience, societal values are not revealed, they’re constructed.
Atheists aren’t antagonistic to you. At least this one is not. I anticipate you will get exactly the same salvation, the same redemption, the same afterlife as I will. I see that you live in the same cinematic universe as I do and are subject to the same physical laws. I see that there is no justice, no kindness except for that which we collectively decide to create for ourselves. Ultimately, we all go to the same grave. And I anticipate neither of us will be disappointed.
It’s your rival ministries that believe their congregation is blessed by fiat, and yours is profane, also by fiat. It is they who believe good and evil are binary, the paint on chess pieces. That once they determine someone is in league with the Devil, they are free to do anything they want to them. And they do. So, yeah, I am concerned this is the model that reflects your beliefs as well. I hope not.
The old and new testaments are meaningful to me the same way the Koran is meaningful to you. And Christian faith is no more or less valid than Muslim faith, or Shinto faith, or Hindu faith. I believe only in what I see, what I understand to be true. What is consistent with my experiences. And yes, it means having to confront that I am not special or chosen. Nor are any of us. In the zombie apocalypse, we’re all just zombies.
Though, if you have to be Christian, perhaps you should consider being Universalist. They, at least, are optimistic about the nature of humanity.
Which denomination is the correct size to be the real Church of Christ? I’m assuming it’s the one you follow?
Haven’t you read above that I’m not a member of a church??? I already said that
Edit: I realise that might’ve been in a separate thread I said that. In any case, I repeat it here.
Nope, didn’t see that. Though I did see your comment about not bothering with atheists, so surely you’ve got some sort of belief system. Something you came up with on your own?
No, kind of. It’s complicated. I’m having a crisis of faith lately. I don’t want to get into it
I don’t understand. Are you an atheist then?
I don’t know rn