What can be scary is when you get to grow up during the Good Times and develop that emotional maturity, then tip into the Bad Times (economic downturn, family drama/death, social upheaval) such that your parents can’t hold shit together anymore. Anyone who has lived through the illness/death of a loved one or a divorce or an ugly recession gets to see the impact on their parents in real time.
Suddenly you’re caught trying to understand why seemingly proper, happy parents can’t manage themselves anymore. It’s a lot to ask from everybody - parents and kids alike. One reason why having strong social safety nets and robust public services can be the difference between families struggling through and falling apart.
Where is the abuse or neglect of a father being quiet during one dinner?
Again, I do think I know where this is coming from… but what is written in the post is NOT that.
This post is like describing a baseball butt slap as sexual abuse… yes, there is such a thing as sexual abuse but a friendly butt slap in baseball is basically in the baseball manual
They’re not calling those specific things abuse, but if you’ve lived in an emotionally abusive home they’re highly recognisable moments. It sounds like you’re coming at this from a slightly too literal frame of mind.
I mean even if the start had been explicit about abusive parents I would have been OK with the post… but even the wording “a household where someone’s mood shifts the atmosphere” come on!..
Anecdote time:
I love music and it is rare I am not playing some music when I am at home. When I have been out of town, my kids (grown already) had said the house felt sad because there was no music playing.
Similarly, when our cat of 20 years died, my mood was not very lively and I did not feel like listening to music… ergo, the house was indeed sadder than normal.
This anecdote fits the post to a T… yes I am taking it literally but there are LOTS of ways this could have been written more clearly and not cast a hurried mom (slamming cabinets) or a worried dad (quieter then usual at dinner) as abusive.
Finally, to clarify, this concerns me because TONS of kids read this stuff and swallow it entirely.
You’re fine, I know how weirdly kids can misconstrue things.
Edit: I want to add that I had no part in the down votes ITT, I’m just trying to bridge the disconnect that we seemed to have. A lot of people are understandably upset though, it’s a touchy subject!
Emotionally abusive parents is what is described, you become very sensitive to nonverbal clues of your parent(s).
It’s not exaggerating, you really get to live around their personal tripwires. And then assume everybody else has those, which makes it hard to trust people.
How is a quieter than usual Dad an abusive parent? it is an absolute exaggeration.
Let me explain: a ranging alcoholic, violent father, would trigger all emotional alerts on a kid. As soon as said father arrives home, the kid would be on edge.
So, in a post like this, they basically skipped over the entire context of the raging alcoholism… instead they said it’s a red flag when parents arrive and open the door.
I understand the context is supposed to be implied; but the post is just very poorly written. It would be like me saying “you learn quickly to protect your face from a bite as soon as a dog barks”… dogs bark all the time, very few would eat people’s faces. In this example, a simple slam of a cabinet or a quieter then usual dad could mean 100000 benign things. OP should have been clear that this was already an abusive environment or at least select better examples of “alerting” behaviour
I agree it could be worded more clearly. Yet for everyone who has lived with this it is clear. Like with depression people always assume its the grand things that hold the sadness, or the madness. It leads people who haven’t experienced it to say ‘Just do something fun’.
Your example of raging alcoholism is a good example. You would say ‘just avoid your parents when they are drunk’, which is good advice, but emotionally abusive people are very adept at making amends and smoothing stuff out when they have recovered. They will be super sweet and attentive but -which is the brutal part- always switch to full drama mode when you least expect it. So you learn to pick up minute cues you can use to shield yourself from incoming emotional blows, but sometimes they still manage to surprise you when you’ve got your guard down.
That’s why you can never feel safe around them, there might be a hair trigger going off any moment that you didn’t know existed. And whilst you can easily advice people in a realtionship like that to just stay clear of those people, it most likely happens when you are a child and simply unable to just distance yourself. But even grown people still fall into the spiral of just wanting their parents to be proud of them even though they should rationally know it will never happen.
The text is very clear for those who have experienced that. It’s very hard to fathom for those who haven’t, and those are blessed for it.
Where is the abuse or neglect of a father being quiet during one dinner?
The implicit presumption is that if someone is quietly fuming now, they’ll become physically violent later. Or verbally abusive. Or neglectful to the point of harm (refusing to feed a hungry child or change a dirty diaper out of spite, hunkering down in front of the TV and leaving the kids to put themselves to bed, etc).
But the flip side of this is a child seeing a parent in distress and trying to accommodate/relieve their pain (as opposed to a child blissfully unconcerned/unaware of the parent’s stress antagonizing them).
Again, I do think I know where this is coming from…
YMMV. It’s very hard to discuss a real historical situations when you’re working from a superficial description or hypothetical implication.
I think where OP’s narrative goes wrong is in describing tense moments in the house as a parental failure without looking beyond the immediate tension. Relationships aren’t some morality play or ethical binary, with a Good Parent and a Bad Child or visa versa. Sometimes you’ve just got an overwhelmed parent and a child thrust into more responsibility than they’re prepared to handle, as a consequence. Or a sick parent being cared for by a child. Or a grieving parent who is being comforted by a child who doesn’t really understand what is going on.
A friend of mine just had his father-in-law pass away, and - of course - his wife was devastated. He had to take over all the household affairs while she worked through her grief. His kids, in turn, had to cope with a mom who was emotionally unresponsive and a dad who was juggling twice the workload. I’ve gotten a few curious anecdotes about how they’ve been processing the trauma. A lot of it has them replicating the care their parents showed them back onto their parents (as best a 2 year old and 4 year old can).
This post is like describing a baseball butt slap as sexual abuse…
I think even that is too specific. I’m more reading it like someone describing a response to the Jaws soundtrack. Are you excited or intrigued or terrified or all of the above? Kinda depends on how you feel about seeing a big shark.
The implicit presumption is that if someone is quietly fuming now, they’ll become physically violent later…
That is a gigantic leap… 100% of the population would have many healthy reasons for being quieter than they normally are and the vast majority do not blow up in a violent rage afterwards.
This is exactly my issue with this post.
It’s very hard to discuss a real historical situations when you’re working from a superficial description or hypothetical implication.
Once again, not the point. We can talk hypotheticals all you want but if we are to make a point, it would be best to make a clear one
A friend of mine just had his father-in-law pass away…
Exactly… I don’t think it’s fair to paint these parents as abusive. Moreover, I do not think there is anything wrong (in this scenario) with kids noticing and trying to help. But this post would paint them as abusive and the child’s natural empathy as a toxic defense mechanism
I think even that is too specific…
Indeed it was too specific, but so was the post… a cabinet slam and/or a father being quiet is a far cry from symptoms of an abusive household
From the narrative, sure. But that’s the cliche they’re leaning on.
This is exactly my issue with this post.
I agree. Like I said, “Jaws Music”. The post is supposed to imply a lot more than they’re willing to make explicit.
We can talk hypotheticals all you want but if we are to make a point, it would be best to make a clear one
The point of the post is to simulate the feeling of looming dread, then use the emotional response to build empathy with the kid in the story.
I don’t think it’s fair to paint these parents as abusive
This is all allegorical. “These parents” aren’t anyone specific. The implication is that the kid in the story is staving off abuse. But, as we’ve both noted, it’s also possible the kid in question is comforting parents who are - themselves - the victims of abuse or neglect.
“Walking on eggshells” implies a consequence if you don’t. The consequence could be a parent flying into a rage. It could also be a parent breaking into tears or falling into a fugue state. “I’m trying to avoid getting beaten by my parents” tells a very different story than “I’m trying to prevent my mom/dad from breaking down into a puddle of tears”.
Empathy is a double edged sword, it’s true. The difference that makes a difference is the emotional maturity of the parents.
That’s normally where the kids learn it from.
What can be scary is when you get to grow up during the Good Times and develop that emotional maturity, then tip into the Bad Times (economic downturn, family drama/death, social upheaval) such that your parents can’t hold shit together anymore. Anyone who has lived through the illness/death of a loved one or a divorce or an ugly recession gets to see the impact on their parents in real time.
Suddenly you’re caught trying to understand why seemingly proper, happy parents can’t manage themselves anymore. It’s a lot to ask from everybody - parents and kids alike. One reason why having strong social safety nets and robust public services can be the difference between families struggling through and falling apart.
That’s when the depression sets in.
No it isn’t. I can’t think of a drawback to empathy that is worse than anything caused by lack of empathy. Specially empathy towards loved ones
I think you mistake my meaning, I wasn’t intending to stake the claim you’re arguing against. I was only saying empathy can hurt sometimes.
Ok, still not sure I get you… hurt through empathy is still a good thing (kind of like pain due to exercise)
In the context of kids using their empathy to survive neglect and abuse… Agree to disagree?
Where is the abuse or neglect of a father being quiet during one dinner?
Again, I do think I know where this is coming from… but what is written in the post is NOT that.
This post is like describing a baseball butt slap as sexual abuse… yes, there is such a thing as sexual abuse but a friendly butt slap in baseball is basically in the baseball manual
They’re not calling those specific things abuse, but if you’ve lived in an emotionally abusive home they’re highly recognisable moments. It sounds like you’re coming at this from a slightly too literal frame of mind.
maybe? but I am just reading the post.
I mean even if the start had been explicit about abusive parents I would have been OK with the post… but even the wording “a household where someone’s mood shifts the atmosphere” come on!..
Anecdote time:
I love music and it is rare I am not playing some music when I am at home. When I have been out of town, my kids (grown already) had said the house felt sad because there was no music playing.
Similarly, when our cat of 20 years died, my mood was not very lively and I did not feel like listening to music… ergo, the house was indeed sadder than normal.
This anecdote fits the post to a T… yes I am taking it literally but there are LOTS of ways this could have been written more clearly and not cast a hurried mom (slamming cabinets) or a worried dad (quieter then usual at dinner) as abusive.
Finally, to clarify, this concerns me because TONS of kids read this stuff and swallow it entirely.
Now flip those emotions. Instead of them feeling sad when there is no music playing, they feel happy because music means you’re not home.
You’re fine, I know how weirdly kids can misconstrue things.
Edit: I want to add that I had no part in the down votes ITT, I’m just trying to bridge the disconnect that we seemed to have. A lot of people are understandably upset though, it’s a touchy subject!
Emotionally abusive parents is what is described, you become very sensitive to nonverbal clues of your parent(s).
It’s not exaggerating, you really get to live around their personal tripwires. And then assume everybody else has those, which makes it hard to trust people.
How is a quieter than usual Dad an abusive parent? it is an absolute exaggeration.
Let me explain: a ranging alcoholic, violent father, would trigger all emotional alerts on a kid. As soon as said father arrives home, the kid would be on edge.
So, in a post like this, they basically skipped over the entire context of the raging alcoholism… instead they said it’s a red flag when parents arrive and open the door.
I understand the context is supposed to be implied; but the post is just very poorly written. It would be like me saying “you learn quickly to protect your face from a bite as soon as a dog barks”… dogs bark all the time, very few would eat people’s faces. In this example, a simple slam of a cabinet or a quieter then usual dad could mean 100000 benign things. OP should have been clear that this was already an abusive environment or at least select better examples of “alerting” behaviour
I agree it could be worded more clearly. Yet for everyone who has lived with this it is clear. Like with depression people always assume its the grand things that hold the sadness, or the madness. It leads people who haven’t experienced it to say ‘Just do something fun’.
Your example of raging alcoholism is a good example. You would say ‘just avoid your parents when they are drunk’, which is good advice, but emotionally abusive people are very adept at making amends and smoothing stuff out when they have recovered. They will be super sweet and attentive but -which is the brutal part- always switch to full drama mode when you least expect it. So you learn to pick up minute cues you can use to shield yourself from incoming emotional blows, but sometimes they still manage to surprise you when you’ve got your guard down.
That’s why you can never feel safe around them, there might be a hair trigger going off any moment that you didn’t know existed. And whilst you can easily advice people in a realtionship like that to just stay clear of those people, it most likely happens when you are a child and simply unable to just distance yourself. But even grown people still fall into the spiral of just wanting their parents to be proud of them even though they should rationally know it will never happen.
The text is very clear for those who have experienced that. It’s very hard to fathom for those who haven’t, and those are blessed for it.
The implicit presumption is that if someone is quietly fuming now, they’ll become physically violent later. Or verbally abusive. Or neglectful to the point of harm (refusing to feed a hungry child or change a dirty diaper out of spite, hunkering down in front of the TV and leaving the kids to put themselves to bed, etc).
But the flip side of this is a child seeing a parent in distress and trying to accommodate/relieve their pain (as opposed to a child blissfully unconcerned/unaware of the parent’s stress antagonizing them).
YMMV. It’s very hard to discuss a real historical situations when you’re working from a superficial description or hypothetical implication.
I think where OP’s narrative goes wrong is in describing tense moments in the house as a parental failure without looking beyond the immediate tension. Relationships aren’t some morality play or ethical binary, with a Good Parent and a Bad Child or visa versa. Sometimes you’ve just got an overwhelmed parent and a child thrust into more responsibility than they’re prepared to handle, as a consequence. Or a sick parent being cared for by a child. Or a grieving parent who is being comforted by a child who doesn’t really understand what is going on.
A friend of mine just had his father-in-law pass away, and - of course - his wife was devastated. He had to take over all the household affairs while she worked through her grief. His kids, in turn, had to cope with a mom who was emotionally unresponsive and a dad who was juggling twice the workload. I’ve gotten a few curious anecdotes about how they’ve been processing the trauma. A lot of it has them replicating the care their parents showed them back onto their parents (as best a 2 year old and 4 year old can).
I think even that is too specific. I’m more reading it like someone describing a response to the Jaws soundtrack. Are you excited or intrigued or terrified or all of the above? Kinda depends on how you feel about seeing a big shark.
That is a gigantic leap… 100% of the population would have many healthy reasons for being quieter than they normally are and the vast majority do not blow up in a violent rage afterwards.
This is exactly my issue with this post.
Once again, not the point. We can talk hypotheticals all you want but if we are to make a point, it would be best to make a clear one
Exactly… I don’t think it’s fair to paint these parents as abusive. Moreover, I do not think there is anything wrong (in this scenario) with kids noticing and trying to help. But this post would paint them as abusive and the child’s natural empathy as a toxic defense mechanism
Indeed it was too specific, but so was the post… a cabinet slam and/or a father being quiet is a far cry from symptoms of an abusive household
From the narrative, sure. But that’s the cliche they’re leaning on.
I agree. Like I said, “Jaws Music”. The post is supposed to imply a lot more than they’re willing to make explicit.
The point of the post is to simulate the feeling of looming dread, then use the emotional response to build empathy with the kid in the story.
This is all allegorical. “These parents” aren’t anyone specific. The implication is that the kid in the story is staving off abuse. But, as we’ve both noted, it’s also possible the kid in question is comforting parents who are - themselves - the victims of abuse or neglect.
“Walking on eggshells” implies a consequence if you don’t. The consequence could be a parent flying into a rage. It could also be a parent breaking into tears or falling into a fugue state. “I’m trying to avoid getting beaten by my parents” tells a very different story than “I’m trying to prevent my mom/dad from breaking down into a puddle of tears”.
Implies a high degree of tension.