wsj.com
www.wsj.com

A WSJ investigation tracked the U.S. citizens caught in the crosshairs of an aggressive government campaign to detain and demonize dissenters

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    • Buffalox@lemmy.world
      7·
      3 days ago

      Doesn’t make much difference anyway. When they elect someone like Trump twice, Americans have shown very clearly they don’t deserve to have democracy as a people.

      It’s sad for the ones that are more moderate and responsible, but they are a minority, and we can’t judge a country by a minority.

      • pucker4676@lemmy.ml
        5·
        2 days ago

        The political compass normalizes most right wingers as being moderate. Liberalism has created this situation. You cannot legislate your way to ethical capitalism.

        • Buffalox@lemmy.world
          31·
          2 days ago

          You cannot legislate your way to ethical capitalism.

          I disagree, that’s exactly what we’ve done in Scandinavia.

          • northface@lemmy.ml
            41·
            2 days ago

            You make it sound like creative tax planning, union busting, gig economy and other forms of exploitation of workers don’t exist in Scandinavia… And I’m just naming a few of the many problems with “ethical capitalism”, as you call it.

            • Buffalox@lemmy.world
              23·
              2 days ago

              Nope union busting does not exist, and the gig economy is tiny, and the little there is, is based on fair pay.
              Obviously there is creative tax planning, that’s kind of a game of whack a mole. Difference here is that we try to have fair tax regulation, contrary to USA that favor the rich, so much so they don’t even have to be creative.

              There is actually a difference between a democracy that works for the people, and one that works for the rich.

              • northface@lemmy.ml
                3·
                2 days ago

                People are being threatened and/or fired for organizing workers at their workplace. I don’t know what your definition of union busting is, but it happens over and over in Sweden.

                Example:

                https://www.arbetaren.se/2024/10/14/varslades-fran-zalandoshylager-nar-arbetsshykoparen-fick-veta-hans-roll-i-facket/

                Another example, from Finland:

                https://yle.fi/a/7-10077702

                Strikebreaking is still a thing, and while very much illegal in its traditional form employers have figured out new ways to legally do it by importing labour from other countries:

                https://www.transportarbetaren.se/strejkbryteriet-ar-tillbaka/

                And regarding the general exploitation of workers, especially low-paying precarious jobs that require hard labour:

                https://www.dagensmedicin.se/arbetsliv/arbetsmiljo/fack-stammer-apotea-for-manga-overtidstimmar/

                I don’t know which country you are from, but it doesn’t really matter is I am quite sure these things happen there as well.

                Capitalism is an antithesis to ethics; you can’t have a capitalist economy without exploiting your workers, and while you can have more or less “nice” employers the absolute majority of them will find ways to fuck you over when push comes to shove.

                Companies exist to make as much profit as possible, and they lose their power if their workers start organizing. That’s why they will find every way to (legally or not) stop that from happening (as seen in the examples I have linked to above).

                • Buffalox@lemmy.world
                  12·
                  2 days ago

                  Technically Finland is not Scandinavian. IDK Swedish law, but here in Denmark it’s illegal to fire people for unionizing. I would expect both Sweden and Finland to have similar worker protections.
                  There are always people that act outside the law, and I suspect your examples aren’t much better than complaining about the unsafe work environment for bank robbers.
                  I don’t care to read your anecdotes, just to tear them apart. Yes Tesla is not unionized in Sweden, but they are an exception, and it is costing them dearly. But every worker at Tesla can go somewhere else that is unionized, and that makes it impossible for Tesla to exploit workers, they probably have to offer better conditions to keep their workers from going elsewhere. Including paying fair wages, having good work conditions, and offering 5 weeks holiday, and paid leave when having a child. All things that are not normal in USA, because unions are not protected by law.
                  Again conditions in Scandinavian countries are better than any country that calls itself non capitalist.
                  So you are trying to argue that the countries that are the best to live in for both the poor and average people, do not have a good system. But some system that only exist in fantasy should be better.
                  You are delusional

                  • northface@lemmy.ml
                    2·
                    1 day ago

                    My only points are the following:

                    • The fact that one country has better working conditions compared to others doesn’t mean its legal system successfully prevents companies from exploiting their workers and thwarting attempts of unionizing and executing strikes.
                    • Arguing that things are worse in other countries is pure whataboutism, as your original comment claimed that Scandinavia had reached some utopian idea of “ethical capitalism” by legislation - which I have tried to show is false (by providing credible sources with examples), as companies are fully able to be unethical to their workers within the legal system
                    • While it may be illegal to fire people for unionizing, it still happens because companies can make up a lot of plausible reasons instead of the actual one, requiring you to have forethought and record every single conversation with managers covertly (which was done in one of the examples I gave you). Some are even willing to pay the fines for breaking this law from time to time in order to scare workers with precarious/temporary employment that don’t want to risk their job. It’s a calculated risk and cost for some businesses that don’t care an inch for their workers.
                    • “Just get another job” as an argument is not the silver bullet you think it is. This requires a lot of privileges; including economy, mobility, possibly having to move (including uprooting your family), maybe having to study or gain new skills by other means to even find a job in your area. Thinking this is an easy task tells me something about your own privileges in life.

                    The fact that you won’t even consider to verify the sources of my claims proves me one thing - you’re the delusional one in this conversation, and you seem to be willing to stray from the discussion by also attacking me personally instead.

                    What do you have to gain by denying this is happening? You may have had luck in your life and never had to experience these things yourself, but I have and many others with me have as well. Society can be pretty messed up when you actually take a look at how things work in practice, not stopping at how it should work.

          • pucker4676@lemmy.ml
            21·
            2 days ago

            Better than some countries, but still participating in capitalism, which cannot exist without exploitation.

            You’re a member of NATO, yeah?

            • Buffalox@lemmy.world
              12·
              2 days ago

              Capitalism is not the basis of society, the law is. And just because we have free markets, doesn’t automatically lead to exploitation. Exploitation is way worse in countries that claim they are not capitalist. All the best countries in the world to live in, are free market democracies.

              • pucker4676@lemmy.ml
                21·
                2 days ago

                Spoken like a truly indoctrinated westerner. Everything about your life has been defined by capitalism, including the “law” you mention. Our capitalist societies have enabled the elites to create those laws which do not apply to them.

                The lesser developed countries that have had the western boots on their throats would also like a word.

                France, Great Britain, and the US, along with it’s NATO allies have been fist fucking the world for a very long. It’s ignorant to call it a free market. It’s looting the global south.

                • Buffalox@lemmy.world
                  11·
                  2 days ago

                  You simply can’t have huge advanced societies without having some sort of leadership of different kinds.
                  That leadership will always be possible to call an elite in any society the size of a country of millions of people.
                  The difference between a functioning democracy and other countries, is that the elite doesn’t get to decide everything. The people actually have a say.
                  Show me a country that doesn’t have an elite, or shut the fuck up with your nonsense.

                  • pucker4676@lemmy.ml
                    22·
                    2 days ago

                    Nonsense? It’s common knowledge that capitalism cannot exist without exploitation, but you seem to think that your NATO member countries aren’t part of that demographic.

                    You’re certainly doing a fine job contributing to climate change as well. Another form of shitting on everyone else.

                    The elite manipulate elections and push for laws with their capital. The societies we live in are hardly democratic. Faux democracy is more like it.

      • stringere@sh.itjust.works
        12·
        2 days ago

        they don’t deserve to have democracy as a people

        Hey fuck you. Eat shit. Die in a fucking chemical car fire. No, better yet, live through one and be horribly disfigured and live out your days in unbearable pain.

          • stringere@sh.itjust.works
            11·
            2 days ago

            No, asshole, you don’t get to come in and sanctimoniously declare that none of us deserve democracy. Fuck you and your privileged self.

            • Buffalox@lemmy.world
              2·
              2 days ago

              And exactly how do you figure Americans “deserve” democracy? Democracy is not a naturally given right, it’s something you have to work for. Americans have utterly failed to do that for 50 years, where it has been obvious the American democracy is extremely dysfunctional.
              You have the government and leaders you elected. Nobody forced anybody to vote Trump. Next to nobody (only 2%) have been fighting to keep democracy, and now you are at a risk of losing it.

              Please mind that I also wrote:

              It’s sad for the ones that are more moderate and responsible, but they are a minority, and we can’t judge a country by a minority.

              I am not talking about individuals here, I very explicitly stated we can only judge based on the majority.

              But just go ahead and call me an asshole for pointing out the failures of your own people if it helps.

              • stringere@sh.itjust.works
                12·
                1 day ago

                You’re stating that anyone doesn’t deserve democracy. Authoritarians and abusers will say similar things while imposing their will on others.