The article above is from Brazilian 35 years old marxist-leninist comrade Jones Manoel. He is a tall black man from a slum in the state of Pernambuco. The cop who killed his father worked (security guard) in Jones’ school. He had to see that cop daily. Did not tell his mom, to avoid worrying a solo mother who worked like a horse to feed her children.
Jones graduated in History, then got a MsC and is now getting a PhD.
He recently debated much older Breno Altman, a brilliant communist journalist and member of the Workers Party. Breno, a secular Jew from an influential anti-zionist family, is a major and fierce critic of Zionism. He is under fierce attack by the Zionist lobby. He has been to Israel, and an Israeli politician (a rare humane one) warned him it wouldn’t be “convenient” for him to try visiting Israel again. Breno was also convicted in Brazil (facing possible jail time) for accusing a zionist of being “coward”.
Breno is a rare Brazilian communist who still supports Lula’s government. Breno maintains the current government has an internal dispute between social-liberalism and social-developmentalism. Jones maintains the goverment is just neoliberal. Great debate!
Some claim China failed, and specifically say it’s because the Cultural Revolution was good, but ultimately lost out. Support for non-western, existing socialism is a bit of a litmus test for socialists.
Can we be honest and acknowledge the fact that if you’re doing socialism or communism correctly, your exports are going to be severely lower than capitalist shitholes like China and the USA? A system that values the workers is not going to have as much force behind it economically as a system that just uses as many laborers as possible as wage slaves. So China having a large export implies that they are not actually doing communism in any real way. Any claims that china is actually communist and it supports it’s peoples wellbeing is literally an American left wing conspiracy theory.
Can you be honest and acknowledge the fact that you don’t seem to know what socialism or communism are? Communism is when low production? What Hearts of Iron mod convinced you of that, and how can we get you reading something real instead?
The Soviet Union starts out with few factories and a very shitty rail network in Road to 56 (I don’t play vanilla hoi4), you literally have to fix it for them. smh stupid tankies didn’t even fix their rail network (/s)
Socialism is a mode of production. It isn’t when you import more than you export, or vice-versa. In the PRC, the large firms and key industries are publicly owned, while medium and small firms have diverse forms of ownership like private, cooperative, and joint-stock. It’s in the primary stage of socialism.
The idea that the PRC isn’t socialist is a “left” wing fallacy among Statesians. In the PRC, socialist countries like Cuba and Vietnam, and among major communist orgs, the PRC’s status as a developing socialist country is not in question.
You haven’t made any arguments as to why China is capitalist, just that it exports, but in reality it is import driven economies that are the most capitalist, and that isn’t even a rule, just a generalization.
Didn’t Mao do the Cultural Revolution specifically to prevent (not that it was implemented well or that it worked) what he saw the USSR was becoming and wanted to prevent China from following in the same capitalistic footsteps?
As in do you believe the person who said
(2) The imperialist powers have forced China to sign numerous unequal treaties by which they have acquired the right to station land and sea forces and exercise consular jurisdiction in China, [17] and they have carved up the whole country into imperialist spheres of influence. [18]
(3) The imperialist powers have gained control of all the important trading ports in China by these unequal treaties and have marked off areas in many of these ports as concessions under their direct administration.[19] They have also gained control of China’s customs, foreign trade and communications (sea, land, inland water and air). Thus they have been able to dump their goods in China, turn her into a market for their industrial products, and at the same time subordinate her agriculture to their imperialist needs
would approve of the belt and road debt trap or the actual 99 year lease China used to take over the port of Colombo in Sri Lanka
?
Or is it fine to exploit other countries if the people in your country benefit?
Even then you believe they’re socialist when Deng Xiaoping says (and Xi repeats this “common prosperity” rhetoric) that
“Our policy is to let some people and some regions get rich first, in order to drive and help the backward regions, and it is an obligation for the advanced regions to help the backward regions.”
So you recognize the failure of neoliberal “trickle down” economics but refuse to accept that if the same capital accumulation happens in a “socialist” country its suddenly not a problem?
And you really think that Jack Ma and his family won’t fight tooth and nail to keep their private jets and offshore million dollar houses instead of forgoing them voluntarily for the good of the socialist project? please…
Though you’ll probably deny this article as valid because it harms your perception of China being a Communist state, and usually people do not like they’re conspiracy theories to be challenged by actual fact.
Additionally, besides the argument of whether it’s communist or not, it is not a good country and if that’s what communism looks like, then I actually want no part in communism. They have no ability for free speech or even protests. Say what you want about it’s economics, but that is not how humans should be forced to live.
They have no ability for free speech or even protests.
Dawg what.
Literally the reason the government ended the covid lockdowns, despite that being the correct course of action that saved shitloads of lives, is because people got tired of it and protested, and the government listened.
Meanwhile here in the states, every protest I’ve ever been part of has been stomped down by riot cops and had it’s demands ignored.
Say what you want about it’s economics, but that is not how humans should be forced to live.
I’m sure they’re all crying and cursing their doubled lifespans
That’s an opinion piece by a non-Marxist that makes the incredibly basic error of confusing the developing stage of socialism with the characteristics of the advanced stage of communism. You’re incredibly arrogant for someone who clearly has done very little reading of Marx.
I’ve written frequently on the PRC’s model of socialism, such as this summary from a few days ago, including resources for further reading. You can even shortcut to my Read Theory, Darn it! introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list, though it’s getting some revisions.
The people of China have freedom of speech, capitalists and businesses do not. The people of China do not protest often, because the system works:
Further, it is absolutely not my place as a statesian communist to tell China how to educate on Marxism. If anything, I try to learn from them and how they teach Marxism so I can more effectively study and help others with theory.
I will admit, I have not read the source theory, but I engage often with communists (most of my immidiate sphere are communists) enough to get a lot of it (I am actually an Anarcho-Communist, just to note). But my problem, as always, with a lot of you people who are obsessed with trying to use China as an example of communism, is the fact that theory and practice are two very different things. Very few places if any even follow your own theory from what I have gleaned from other comrades.
It is also really easy to pressure people to give the answers you want to for those kind of questions if you are an authoritarian state. Also from the cyber security sector, most citizens of China desperately try and get their hands on vpns or use tor in order to be able to actually access the external world, which is never a good sign and does not scream “We’re free!” to me.
Also fox news is abhorant, as is all American backed official news outlets. I use lemmy, did you really think that I watch state provided news? Or was that an ad hominim because people here dislike Fox specifically?
Marxist-Leninist theory and practice are united in the PRC. As you admit, you have not read much theory, and are commiting the same error as the person you linked: a non-Marxist judging a socialist state in the primary stage by the characteristics applicable to an advanced communist society. I linked you some good starting points so you can correct these misunderstandings, but if you are going to continue to insist on being right about theory you admitted you haven’t even read, then there isn’t much room for constructive discussion.
As for the dismissal of consistent hard data on the grounds that Chinese citizens are “pressured,” this data is from western orgs surveying Chinese citizens, unaffiliated with the CPC. Western orgs have been trying to understand CPC resilliance because they wish to undermine it, and as such have been trying to best understand why the CPC is beloved. Spoiler: it’s socialism.
The Fox News bit was a tongue-in-cheek jab referencing the fact that you are repeating right-wing talking points about the PRC near-identical to mainstream media. I apologize for the jab, but I consider it fair after you opened with jabs and condescension yourself.
A bit on the “stages of socialism” I referenced, a table from Cheng Enfu:
I appreciate the apology for the jab and i as well apologize for seeming somewhat resistant and bitter. Most of my problem with china comes from how they handle the digital front and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for how they treat their citizens, so it’s really hard for me to imagine they’re doing socialism correctly. I will probably go and look into the sources you linked.
For the PRC, specifically with respect to the “Great Firewall,” it’s largely a two-fold measure.
It forces internal internet development, rather than relying on the present system flooded by western capital. This forces self-reliance.
The west has huge amounts of money and a near total control on information, and has historically used it in “Radio Free X” news stations to propagandize against and undermine socialism in the real world. It keeps control out of the hands of capitalists in the PRC, which is critical in a country where class struggle is very much alive and constant.
The people use VPNs if they want to, it isn’t very strictly enforced against. Ultimately, what’s important is that, in the information age, China has sovereignty over its own infrastructure and the working class is in charge. This is directly shown in huge approval rates, and rapid development from democratically decided Five Year Plans. China has taken a scientific approach to production and development, and while they have a long way to go, they’ve come farther than anyone else in far shorter of an amount of time.
I’m not saying you have to abandon anarcho-communism (though I once was an anarchist myself), I just encourage you to take a sympathetic approach rather than an antagonistic one when trying to understand the system the people of China have fought and died for, and work day in and day out with pride to continue building up.
The PRC is leaps and bounds better than the US, and it isn’t close. Further, socialism isn’t when “no exports,” lol.
LMAO
What’s funny?
You.
In what way? The PRC is leaps and bounds ahead of the US from a developmental perspective and from an ethics perspective, and it isn’t close.
LMAO
Amazing
I have points, I’m just not wasting my time providing them to you.
But reading your nonsense is hilarious. Therefore: LMAO.
Seems more like cope.
Socialism is when poor.
-Gang of Four
Also something about western Marxism and Christianity
Spot-on! The only socialism acceptable to the standard western viewpoint is a vow of poverty and self-sacrifice.
If China is comminist then why hasn’t it been overthrown by the CIA? Chechmate tankie
Western Marxism Loves Purity and Martyrdom, But Not Real Revolution
The article above is from Brazilian 35 years old marxist-leninist comrade Jones Manoel. He is a tall black man from a slum in the state of Pernambuco. The cop who killed his father worked (security guard) in Jones’ school. He had to see that cop daily. Did not tell his mom, to avoid worrying a solo mother who worked like a horse to feed her children.
Jones graduated in History, then got a MsC and is now getting a PhD.
https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Jones_Manoel
He recently debated much older Breno Altman, a brilliant communist journalist and member of the Workers Party. Breno, a secular Jew from an influential anti-zionist family, is a major and fierce critic of Zionism. He is under fierce attack by the Zionist lobby. He has been to Israel, and an Israeli politician (a rare humane one) warned him it wouldn’t be “convenient” for him to try visiting Israel again. Breno was also convicted in Brazil (facing possible jail time) for accusing a zionist of being “coward”.
Breno is a rare Brazilian communist who still supports Lula’s government. Breno maintains the current government has an internal dispute between social-liberalism and social-developmentalism. Jones maintains the goverment is just neoliberal. Great debate!
Governo Lula é neoliberal? Breno Altman x Jones Manoel - Debate especial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqPhJnShKWA
Thanks for the write-up and video! I’ll have to watch it later.
If China failed US “leftists” would praise Mao every day
Some claim China failed, and specifically say it’s because the Cultural Revolution was good, but ultimately lost out. Support for non-western, existing socialism is a bit of a litmus test for socialists.
Can we be honest and acknowledge the fact that if you’re doing socialism or communism correctly, your exports are going to be severely lower than capitalist shitholes like China and the USA? A system that values the workers is not going to have as much force behind it economically as a system that just uses as many laborers as possible as wage slaves. So China having a large export implies that they are not actually doing communism in any real way. Any claims that china is actually communist and it supports it’s peoples wellbeing is literally an American left wing conspiracy theory.
If you’re doing communism correctly, you lift millions out of poverty while standing strong against the empire
Can you be honest and acknowledge the fact that you don’t seem to know what socialism or communism are? Communism is when low production? What Hearts of Iron mod convinced you of that, and how can we get you reading something real instead?
The Soviet Union starts out with few factories and a very shitty rail network in Road to 56 (I don’t play vanilla hoi4), you literally have to fix it for them. smh stupid tankies didn’t even fix their rail network (/s)
This is puritanism brain worms. Your position is that socialism done correctly is subsistence living. What a terrible vision.
I prefer the country that hasn’t invaded anyone in 50 years over the country that’s launched an invasion every 18 months
Chinese people that like their government are part of an American left wing conspiracy I guess
You’re a clown. Talk to people that live there instead of other USians
Socialism is when nobody does any work
No, we can’t, because that’s an absurd premise.
Socialism is a mode of production. It isn’t when you import more than you export, or vice-versa. In the PRC, the large firms and key industries are publicly owned, while medium and small firms have diverse forms of ownership like private, cooperative, and joint-stock. It’s in the primary stage of socialism.
The idea that the PRC isn’t socialist is a “left” wing fallacy among Statesians. In the PRC, socialist countries like Cuba and Vietnam, and among major communist orgs, the PRC’s status as a developing socialist country is not in question.
You haven’t made any arguments as to why China is capitalist, just that it exports, but in reality it is import driven economies that are the most capitalist, and that isn’t even a rule, just a generalization.
Didn’t Mao do the Cultural Revolution specifically to prevent (not that it was implemented well or that it worked) what he saw the USSR was becoming and wanted to prevent China from following in the same capitalistic footsteps?
As in do you believe the person who said
would approve of the belt and road debt trap or the actual 99 year lease China used to take over the port of Colombo in Sri Lanka ?
Or is it fine to exploit other countries if the people in your country benefit?
Even then you believe they’re socialist when Deng Xiaoping says (and Xi repeats this “common prosperity” rhetoric) that
So you recognize the failure of neoliberal “trickle down” economics but refuse to accept that if the same capital accumulation happens in a “socialist” country its suddenly not a problem?
And you really think that Jack Ma and his family won’t fight tooth and nail to keep their private jets and offshore million dollar houses instead of forgoing them voluntarily for the good of the socialist project? please…
https://www.ie.edu/insights/articles/is-china-a-communist-country/
Though you’ll probably deny this article as valid because it harms your perception of China being a Communist state, and usually people do not like they’re conspiracy theories to be challenged by actual fact.
Additionally, besides the argument of whether it’s communist or not, it is not a good country and if that’s what communism looks like, then I actually want no part in communism. They have no ability for free speech or even protests. Say what you want about it’s economics, but that is not how humans should be forced to live.
Dawg what.
Literally the reason the government ended the covid lockdowns, despite that being the correct course of action that saved shitloads of lives, is because people got tired of it and protested, and the government listened.
Meanwhile here in the states, every protest I’ve ever been part of has been stomped down by riot cops and had it’s demands ignored.
I’m sure they’re all crying and cursing their doubled lifespans
Please Xi, my people yearn to be forced to live like that
That’s an opinion piece by a non-Marxist that makes the incredibly basic error of confusing the developing stage of socialism with the characteristics of the advanced stage of communism. You’re incredibly arrogant for someone who clearly has done very little reading of Marx.
I’ve written frequently on the PRC’s model of socialism, such as this summary from a few days ago, including resources for further reading. You can even shortcut to my Read Theory, Darn it! introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list, though it’s getting some revisions.
The people of China have freedom of speech, capitalists and businesses do not. The people of China do not protest often, because the system works:
It’s time for you to turn off Fox News.
“Theory is a leftist conspiracy!” - @basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com probably
Those damn commies and all the books we read, lol
Sorry to challenge your little conspiracy theory based on 200 years of theory and praxis. My sources:
Yep pretty much lol
You should send those books to china and see if they’ll read them.
I support that.
They do, Marxism is a subject you can major in in college.
Further, it is absolutely not my place as a statesian communist to tell China how to educate on Marxism. If anything, I try to learn from them and how they teach Marxism so I can more effectively study and help others with theory.
Edit: and you admit you, yourself haven’t read them!!! Pure Western “leftist” clown shit
I will admit, I have not read the source theory, but I engage often with communists (most of my immidiate sphere are communists) enough to get a lot of it (I am actually an Anarcho-Communist, just to note). But my problem, as always, with a lot of you people who are obsessed with trying to use China as an example of communism, is the fact that theory and practice are two very different things. Very few places if any even follow your own theory from what I have gleaned from other comrades.
It is also really easy to pressure people to give the answers you want to for those kind of questions if you are an authoritarian state. Also from the cyber security sector, most citizens of China desperately try and get their hands on vpns or use tor in order to be able to actually access the external world, which is never a good sign and does not scream “We’re free!” to me.
Also fox news is abhorant, as is all American backed official news outlets. I use lemmy, did you really think that I watch state provided news? Or was that an ad hominim because people here dislike Fox specifically?
Marxist-Leninist theory and practice are united in the PRC. As you admit, you have not read much theory, and are commiting the same error as the person you linked: a non-Marxist judging a socialist state in the primary stage by the characteristics applicable to an advanced communist society. I linked you some good starting points so you can correct these misunderstandings, but if you are going to continue to insist on being right about theory you admitted you haven’t even read, then there isn’t much room for constructive discussion.
As for the dismissal of consistent hard data on the grounds that Chinese citizens are “pressured,” this data is from western orgs surveying Chinese citizens, unaffiliated with the CPC. Western orgs have been trying to understand CPC resilliance because they wish to undermine it, and as such have been trying to best understand why the CPC is beloved. Spoiler: it’s socialism.
The Fox News bit was a tongue-in-cheek jab referencing the fact that you are repeating right-wing talking points about the PRC near-identical to mainstream media. I apologize for the jab, but I consider it fair after you opened with jabs and condescension yourself.
A bit on the “stages of socialism” I referenced, a table from Cheng Enfu:
I appreciate the apology for the jab and i as well apologize for seeming somewhat resistant and bitter. Most of my problem with china comes from how they handle the digital front and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for how they treat their citizens, so it’s really hard for me to imagine they’re doing socialism correctly. I will probably go and look into the sources you linked.
Apology accepted!
For the PRC, specifically with respect to the “Great Firewall,” it’s largely a two-fold measure.
It forces internal internet development, rather than relying on the present system flooded by western capital. This forces self-reliance.
The west has huge amounts of money and a near total control on information, and has historically used it in “Radio Free X” news stations to propagandize against and undermine socialism in the real world. It keeps control out of the hands of capitalists in the PRC, which is critical in a country where class struggle is very much alive and constant.
The people use VPNs if they want to, it isn’t very strictly enforced against. Ultimately, what’s important is that, in the information age, China has sovereignty over its own infrastructure and the working class is in charge. This is directly shown in huge approval rates, and rapid development from democratically decided Five Year Plans. China has taken a scientific approach to production and development, and while they have a long way to go, they’ve come farther than anyone else in far shorter of an amount of time.
I’m not saying you have to abandon anarcho-communism (though I once was an anarchist myself), I just encourage you to take a sympathetic approach rather than an antagonistic one when trying to understand the system the people of China have fought and died for, and work day in and day out with pride to continue building up.
Trust me, we knew.