To those who think it is a fair compromise: It is not.
Android already had one layer of this shit before. When installid freshly dowloaded apk, android would prompt you to confirm that the source of the apk is trusted. This was not like this before. Before you’d just install apk.
And I agree to a certain amount. But thing is, it was added for no specific reason. People who install apks form outside source, will keep doing it and they 99% of the time know what they are doing or being told to do so by someone who knows what they are doing.
Adding another layer to this wont solve the problem, except make users annoyed for 24h wait time. And this is only adding 1 layer now. Who the fuck knows what is going to be 1 year later. 5 years later?
fuck google. We immediately need linux like alternative to android
This would make sense if google play store wasnt full of malware. Scammers dont need you to sideload malicious apps they just get you to download it from the play store.
Remember when you used to own shit? Wow. This is beyond fucked. Right now, it’s “one day”. But this is only because they got a shit load of backlash for disallowing ALL installing software without their permission. They WILL enact it. They’ll just wait until people are used to this. Then they will disallow it all.
I think it was just a technique for them to pretend they listened to the community: first, announce something extreme; then, back down a bit.
People will think they won while they’ve just lost.
it’s very clear we have to escape Android and Google entirely, there is no other option.
Please donate to PostmarketOS if you have the means, it gives us a true alternative that is completely community owned, it just needs our support to become polished and to add support for more phones.
We have to support software that’s still made for us. While we still can.
Yes, I am more seriously than ever looking into using Postmarket OS.
Sideloading < Aka avoiding the monopoly app store with your own device
We should stop calling it sideloading as if it’s something bad. It’s just installing.
It’s my device FFS!
Meanwhile the scam apps and viruses in the damn play store: …
Important to note ADB is still unaffected
I use fdroid and aurora stores but lately I’m having this message for apps installed from aurora that are also available in play store.
Is this a thing enforced by android or by the apps? Is there a way to circumvent it?
I saw that on an app about a year ago. I’ve never uninstalled an app that fast before.
E: Yeah, exact same message
I teach digital literacy and 99% of unsavory software I encounter on people’s phones come from the play store or app store
I will believe that they’re serious about protecting users when I see them do something about the crap ton of borderline scam solitaire and weather apps infesting their stores
Your wish is fulfilled. Google now requires the government id, full biometrics and shared gps location to publish apps in the store.
I mean, yeah. They do. Would it be finally enough to stop all scammers online? All in on a clear “No”.
See, that is fine. If Google wants to have a safe and curated, high quality store, (which it doesn’t), it is very logical that it would want to have the origins of software very well identified.
AS LONG AS it provides a mechanism for users to access other sources of software.
They are doing the opposite, allow bullshit apps in the “safe store” while hindering the independents.
We desperately need a decently competent OSS phone OS, if possible with a compatibility layer for Android apps.
A one day wait period to install an app on your mobile pocket computer. Fucken bullshit.
Edit: to all the “its one time” defenders, its one time for now. Stop falling for it. It always starts with an inch.
A one day wait period to install an app on your mobile pocket computer.
And that somehow supposed to stop users from inflicting their phones with virus software? Like, it does not make sense. Okay, force all devs to upload their IDs, no biggie (I guess). But do not lock users into the “tough luck, you cant sideload” system. 1 day wait will not prevent anything. They just added a mild annoyance for 24h, nothing more.
I mean, it always starts with an inch but what people dont get is that compared to the 2000’s we are a mile deep and compared to rhe 80’s we are already in a dystopia.
It used to be no time at all. You could just do it. From that perspective they’ve already taken a mile.
From zero to any nonzero value is infinite miles
sushhh… the shareholders’ imaginary line has to go up.
Well if you’re in the US you can head down to your LGS, buy a Glock 19 and do some plinking while you wait for the software to install on your phone :/
It appears that the “security wait” will be a one time thing when you first allow installing from unverified sources. After enabling it it will remain on indefiniately.
Not quite as bad as I was fearing, but will kinda annoying.
“Not quire as bad”? My dude, you have to ask for permission from a corporation to install an app on your phone that you supposedly own and paid for. On what planet is this not awful?
This is happening to PCs now too, eg. with the OS ‘age-gating’ laws that IMO only exist to quell competition for MS, Google, and Apple.
I sincerely doubt that will actually come into fruition. There’s no way to force all linux distros to have that. At least I hope there isn’t.
So its time to move to a distro without systemd?
Yep, it’s pretty bad, it sets a bad precedent, and has me looking for alternatives.
When it was originally announced I got the impression that Google would soon be removing the ability to sideload apps altogether and as I almost entirely use apps installed from “untrusted” sources this would have been a nightmare for me.
So while I think this whole situation is shit, and will almost certainly lead to Google removing the ability to sideload apps in the future, for me the immediate anxiety has been lifted.
You do realize that what you’re saying might’ve been the goal all along? It’s literally an “I’m altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it further” vader moment and you’re saying you’re relieved. Make no mistake, you, me and every single Android user was just fucked over and it’ll only get worse.
I don’t think I made myself clear; I am relievd because I thought I was going to lose access to my apps in the next update cycle. The thought of that filled me with anxiety, but now I have more time to prepare.
I’m hoping that something like lineageOS will be unaffected and will be available for my device before Google remove sideloading altogether
And that is the tactic commonly used to slowly boil the frog.
It looks like a glorified ‘developer mode’ switch that has the 1 day wait to prevent someone from grabbing your phone, turning on sideloading, installing some hazardous app, and then having their way with your info. This appears to be the best of both worlds.
Like when unlocking your bootloader wiped your info. Just do it first. not a year in to using your device, if thats your plan.
When has your imaginary scenario ever been a problem? Can you name a single example where that has happenned? Stop making excuses for corporations fucking over their users.
Lmfao. I’ll invent a better way and it will only take me negative 50 years to do it.
Passcode.
There is absolutely nothing positive about this. It is only nefarious, full stop. I could open a million dollar restaurant that served microwaved cat shit, but on the menu it’s called “Tbone Steak” and with your logic, people wouldn’t notice the difference.
Okay, pump the breaks a second.
I agree a day wait is bullshit, but you think a passcode is enough to keep someone from… anything? You can shoulder surf a passcode in no time at all. Hell, it’s not even difficult. Go to a bar, talk someone up, give a legit reason to use someone’s phone, intentionally lock and force a passcode and 99% of people at bars will put their pin in within eyesight, or tell you the code.
A passcode isn’t as big a deterrent as most people seem to think it is. It’ll keep you out of an unattended phone you found, but there are plenty of ways to socially engineer your way into having it for the vast majority of targets.
And yes, you likely wouldn’t give your passcode out. But this is how a number of ne’er-do-wells got unfettered access to hundreds of iPhones, and prompted Apple to put a semi similar 24 hour lock on certain security actions if you aren’t in a “known to the phone” location (somewhere you frequent like home or work).
Edit to note: passwords aren’t much better. One of my hobbies in college was shoulder surfing classmates passwords just to repeat it back to them later in the day. Though on a phone you have far fewer reasons to type in an associated accounts password.
When you couple what you just said with what they’re trying to do, your own argument can be made in my favor.
One of my hobbies in college was shoulder surfing classmates passwords just to repeat it back to them later in the day. Though on a phone you have far fewer reasons to type in an associated accounts password.
Never tell anyone else this again, and stop doing it. What an insane invasion of privacy.
My security should be my choice on my device end of story. My password/passcode plus encryption with easily accessible ways to put it into lockdown mode and have lockdown mode on a continuous timer is absolutely enough for my threat model.
I don’t need any else making any addition call on it, and I definitely don’t need someone that is willingly bragging about invading others privacy coaching me on what these companies are intending while actively trying to take my right to privacy away.
You call it an invasion of privacy, I call it fucking with friends while teaching them to be cognizant of who is watching what they do. You realize they can (and did) just immediately change their password right?
I’m also not sure how “the average person treats their passcodes and passwords like everyone is intentionally looking away” somehow strengthens “lock making the phone less secure behind a passcode” as an argument.
And yes, it 100% lowers the security of the phone. Which absolutely is your choice. Which I also do, and have done with my wife and kids phones. But the idea that a passcode is somehow a solution is just silly.
Not as silly as a 24 hour wait controlled by google, but still silly.
If they’re already into your phone there’s so many legitimate ways to extract your data. The ability to sideload an app won’t impact that.
Technically installing an app allows continuous spying instead of one-time offloading. It’s an actual consideration with spyware like Pegasus: it might’ve been used as a bug to listen to offline conversations.
The OS is the spyware, they’re ensuring you cannot remove it.
Sure. Because as we know people grabbing your unlocked phone to sideload apps onto it is an almost daily occurrence. Which of us hasn’t had a stranger install a cryto miner while we looked away for a second.
Get real. This is an imaginary problem affecting the 0.01% they are using to tell you this action is justifiable. Getting more control is the aim of their game
Oh yeah, because those guys seriously can’t wait a day
This has nothing to do with security
So this feature is disabled if you have a pin?
Until you have to help someone install an app not available to them.
Xfinity stream for example is not on the Chromecast play store, even though an Android build exists on the Fire TV store. I had to guide my dad through this. In this case it wouldn’t be possible for 24 hours.
Had a similar issue with an app not available in a friend’s region.
I could live with the whole flow minus the delay. This is shit, just pure shit.
One day wait period to enable installing third party apps. Afterwards no extra wait time or verification.
There shouldnt be any wait. Its stupid and completely arbitrary
For now. Don’t fight to give them an inch
I think it is a reasonable compromise. They could have made it a day wait for any and every time you wanted to side load like this. It prevents accidental or malicious activation, while also giving you the feature you want with the smallest of roadblocks as confirmation you want it. And you only have to do it one time. I don’t think it’s the burden you do.
People this willing to let a self-enriching corporate nanny state erode their ability to use the products they paid for terrify me.
People this willing to fall for the blatant corporate strategy of “We’ll announce something unthinkable but then backpedal to something “only” terrible (and then probably do the unthinkable thing later now that we’ve encroached further and softened the blow)” for the millionth time confound me.
Show some dignity; jesus christ. This isn’t a “compromise”. Me breaking into your house, threatening to kill you, but then “only” hitting you with a bat and leaving isn’t a “compromise”.
In the sales world, this effect is called “price anchoring” and is used by tons of companies. All those sales you see where something is “marked down 50%!” are using a manufacturers price that does exist in real life to get that 50% markdown. In reality, the sale price is just the actual price of the item but people see the “huge discount” and think they’re getting a deal.
Long live lineagos
Things like LineageOS are a workaround, not a solution.
The solution has to be legal, not technical. Companies have to be stopped from trying to fuck with users’ property rights in the first place!
Yup. I’ve heard this first about Home Assistant, but software like this often inadvertently acts like a pacifier for tech enthusiasts. We may have our neat solution for the moment and be content with that, but that doesn’t help anyone else, or us in the long term. Things will get worse with no push-back.
Disclaimer: That’s not to say that we shouldn’t advocate for those tools in the meantime as well. We just shouldn’t lose track of the actual problem.
People get what they pay for.
Hyperbole much?
This is a basic balance between the needs of the few, and the security of the many. The benefits of a one day speed bump are far more beneficial for the billions of Android users in the world, and offer no meaningful negatives to those that wish to enable this feature beyond that delay.
I realize that many people here are in or adjacent to IT work, and so are more passionate about these sorts of topics and are well versed in the risks, but in my opinion, allowing a simple, immediate way to bypass all security checks and install whatever you want immediately is a pretty big security hole, even if it is self-created. It makes sense to put those roadblocks up to protect the 99.9% that will never use this feature, as well as those that may activate it not understanding the risk. You may be comfortable with it, and that’s great, but that doesn’t mean every Android should. This is why prompts asking about coercion and not your IT prowess.
Finally. your example is poor. Google is not breaking into your phone and hurting you in way. If anything, it’s like a real estate agent that’s not giving you the keys until the bank opens so your check can clear. It’s a process issue, nothing more.
Your ability to use your device, as you see fit, installing anything you want, is entirely possible with a single one-day delay. As I said, I don’t think it is an unreasonable ask, nor the enormous inconvenience you make it out to be.
It’s my device. If I want to brick it I should be able to.
I don’t need google telling me what I can put on this fucking phone I bought and paid for.
And they’re not. Load all the unsigned stuff you want after you wait one day. Again, I don’t see how this is a huge burden to ask.
It sure is a completely unnecessary burden designed as a deterrant.
It will likely have that effect on some, yes. It will also prevent it from being enabled without knowing the full scope of your ask. But that’s kind of the point— it’s a big deal, and the user should be informed. Not everyone is capable of understanding these decisions immediately and accurately assessing risk.
At some point, there is always, always a compromise between user experience and security, and not everyone is going to like it. But in this instance, I think the benefits of having this process and cool-down period to make the risks known far outweigh the need for immediate gratification by the minority of users that will enable and use this feature.
What is it a compromise between? People who think they own the thing they paid for and people who don’t?
Obviously we need to find a middle ground between owning the things we purchase, and not owning them. Having access, but making it annoying is a very reasonable option.
Why? We are paying full price for these devices and nothing in any agreement made at the time of purchase suggests that you don’t own them. Why is it necessary to meet a middle ground between “you got what you paid for” and “you didn’t”?
that was a very obvious joke
After reading through the rest of this comment section, I’m not so sure about that
Poe’s law. You should have used tone indicators…
Because everything must get worse.
I realize you are making a joke, and I agree that purchase is always better than subscription. Everyone in this situation owns their device.
But that doesn’t mean an easy to activate security bypass should be made available to everyone with no guardrails, either, should it?
A reasonable compromise would be not telling people what they can and can’t do on devices they paid for. If Google wants that level of control, they can buy my phone for me.
While I understand your sentiment, with all due respect, they are giving you the control with this process. You’re only mad you have to wait one day one time before you can do it.
I don’t have to do shit, because I Graphene for the same reason I use Linux. I’m not interested in asking a corporation for permission to do what I want.
No. Fuck all of that. I will not have some fucking Corp tell me what I can install and when on my own goddamn hardware.
If they want to implement something like this, make it an opt-in toggle during device setup to put the phone into nanny mode
So, the idea is to make the process as annoying as possible.
No. It’s to make it very annoying. It’s not as annoying as possible, because it could always be more annoying.
“This is Android’s new ‘advanced flow’ for INSTALLING apps without verification”. Sideloading is such a bullshit term made only to confuse consumers. They can wrap that in sparkling wrapper, but it’s still security theater at best and definetly misleading. Apps from F-Droid or any other app ‘store’ are not any less safe than the ones at googles own offering.
Without verification by Google. I am very much capable of verifying the origin and trustworthiness of the apps I install.
The advanced flow is not for “installing apps”. It’s for sideloaded apps.
Do you consider installing games to you PC from Steam sideloading too? What about downloading Firefox installer? It is installing software on your computer, no matter if that computer happens to be in a cellphone form factor, and always has been. Sideloading is a made up term to make it sound somehow dangerous or complicated in order to justify even bigger walls on the ecosystem garden and control how people use their own devices.
Do you consider installing games to you PC
This is not a PC though. Whether you or I like it or not, they are different. And no one wants to type out “installing apps from outside the Google Play Store” every time. It’s a useful term.
Sideloading is a made up term
All terms are made up.
to make it sound somehow dangerous or complicated in order to justify
[Citation needed]
People keep saying this but it makes absolutely no sense. The term predates both Apple and Google, and nothing about the term itself suggests it is “dangerous”.
“installing apps from outside the Google Play Store”
To me that implies it’s somehow different than just installing software. You could say ‘install from play store’ or ‘install from f-droid’ if you need to specify which app repository you should use, as that what it is. Sideloading might be an appropriate term if you need to upload apk to your device via USB-cable from your PC, which the term originally meant.
to make it sound somehow dangerous or complicated in order to justify
[Citation needed]
From the article:
This “advanced flow” is for power users and enthusiasts who “want to take educated risks to install software from unverified developers.” Google says it was “designed carefully to prevent those in the midst of a scam attempt from being coerced by high pressure tactics to install malicious software.”
Sure, the term itself comes from 1990s, but lately specially Google tries to twist that to mean something only ‘power users’ do and it comes with a ‘educated risk’.
Semantics, no? Side loading is an alternate way of installing.
Yes, it is, thank you.
Do usual dev mode shit…
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You then have to confirm that you aren’t being coached/guided/instructed by a bad actor to turn off the security measures.
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This is followed by a device restart and re-authentication that “cuts off any remote access or active phone calls a scammer might be using to watch what you’re doing.”
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A required “Security wait” takes one day to “confirm that this is really you who’s making this change with our biometric authentication (fingerprint or face unlock) or device PIN.” This is a one-time wait.
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Afterwards, you can install apps from unverified developers indefinitely, while there’s also a 7-day “Turn on temporarily” option.
I don’t think the wait is necessary. If someone were to continue being scammed after a reboot, they’d continue to be scamme tomorrow. An additional education piece after the reboot would be more effective.
Jfc, the apps scammers usually use are on the fucking play store. Good fucking dammit this is stupid.
This is the salient point that’s hard to communicate.
We’ve moved to fdroid and others because we’re trying to avoid the scammers on the Play Store.
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Is there EU petition against this already?
