That’s funny, I had the opposite experience. When Israel started doing it’s genocide, all the liberals on here were defending it, while the tankies were on the right side of history right from the start.
In October of 2023, when Israel started its genocide (and yes, in week 1 we already knew it was a genocide), liberals were falling over themselves defending it. On .world especially. You can go back to the Israel-related threads at the time for yourself. This predates the 2024 US election by a fair amount btw.
You’ve never seen liberals screaming about voting for Biden or Kamala prior to the election on here? I couldn’t open the website without seeing it. That’s defense of the genocide, lol.
Voting for a candidate because they are better than the other guy is not an enforcement of all their policies, and pretending it is is a psyop for the opposition.
Why would I be proud of myself? I hope your state collapses and is balkanized. Once that happens Israel loses support and there can be peace in the middle east maybe.
When did that happen? The closest was people pointing out, correctly, that if you actually cared about Israel’s actions it was obvious that Trump would be worse. That’s not defending genocide, that’s trying to prevent people from making stupid decisions for noble reasons.
You know the genocide predates the US election by about a year right? People were not talking about Trump. You can go back for yourself, on lemmy.world, in October 2023, liberals were defending Israel’s genocide en masse.
Yeah I didn’t see any of that. I saw people speaking up for Palestine. I can’t say with certainly that it never happened, but it definitely wasn’t “en masse”.
I’m telling you what I saw, and I was extremely active. I saw no significant defense of the Biden/Harris administration on Gaza except when it came to the election, and again only to point out that Trump would be objectively worse.
I’m sorry, the invasion of Ukraine is a terrible thing, and definitely illegal, but it is not a genocide. Not a single human rights organization or anything like the ICJ, UN, ICC is calling it a genocide.
Youre right I don’t think it’s correct at all to call it a genocide. I think they’re just hypersensitive to the minimizing language tankies use a lot, where a lot of historians said “the uyghur genocide” and tankies say “uhm technically there was no mention of genocide from this international rights body so that’s an overreaction.” The implication being that sure it’s not good what’s happening to them, but it’s not THAT bad.
Tankies do a similar thing with Ukraine where they say “they’re just taking back some of the land they rightfully control,” or some other minimization.
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
This part matters a lot. If we ignore it, anyone killing any member of any group can be said to commit a genocide. Showing this is typically quite difficult in court cases, because it’s pretty hard to read someone’s mind, and very few people are stupid or arrogant enough to announce such intentions.
Israeli officials are either so stupid or arrogant, going around saying stuff like “kill them, kill their mothers, kill their children”, “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. … This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it’s absolutely not true.”, “If we don’t give them food, they will move…”, and so on. And please don’t underestimate this “and so on”. There’s pages and pages of Israeli officials basically saying “we’re committing genocide”.
Normally it takes years of investigative work after the fact to even get a peep out of the ICJ, but here they conceded that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide about 4 months in. That’s huge. And a key part of that is the fact that South Africa showed Israel’s intent. And that’s just something we haven’t done for Russia’s actions yet. Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine has been going on for years, and there’s no plausible genocide ICJ ruling against Russia, and not for lack of trying. The evidence of intent has as of yet not been found.
Russia is currently not in the position to carry out a genocide, unlike Israel, so technically that can be correct. However, not everything is in the actions, something is in the intent as well (trying to commit a crime and failing can still be illegal and punishable), and Russia has made its heinous plans quite clear.
That is absolutely correct. Genocide, however, is not one of those things. A significant portion of the definition of genocide consists of actions. So when you say someone is committing a genocide, you’re saying they’re doing some specific stuff with some very specific intentions. One of the two is not enough. You need both.
The ICJ is hearing counterclaims that Ukraine is committing genocide. So by your standards, Ukraine is committing genocide too. That doesn’t hold up to my standards, so I don’t believe Ukraine is committing genocide (or Russia for that matter).
Ok I guess we have slightly different standards for calling things a genocide then. What did your eyes see that makes you call Russia’s illegal invasion a genocide? What is your personal definition of genocide?
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
See the fifth part where the Russians stripped Ukrainian children of their nationality, forced Russia nationality on them and forcibly adopted them to Russians.
That’s funny, I had the opposite experience. When Israel started doing it’s genocide, all the liberals on here were defending it, while the tankies were on the right side of history right from the start.
Where? Is there one example? I never saw one.
I saw a bunch of people hoping trump won over it though. Which made less than no sense.
In October of 2023, when Israel started its genocide (and yes, in week 1 we already knew it was a genocide), liberals were falling over themselves defending it. On .world especially. You can go back to the Israel-related threads at the time for yourself. This predates the 2024 US election by a fair amount btw.
You’ve never seen liberals screaming about voting for Biden or Kamala prior to the election on here? I couldn’t open the website without seeing it. That’s defense of the genocide, lol.
Voting for a candidate because they are better than the other guy is not an enforcement of all their policies, and pretending it is is a psyop for the opposition.
No, it’s voters accepting garbage politicians and policies.
How do you propose voters not accept them?
You… Don’t vote for them. Are all Americans this fucking braindead, lol?
Great! Now we have concentration camps AND the genocide has spread to Lebanon. I hope you are proud of yourself.
Why would I be proud of myself? I hope your state collapses and is balkanized. Once that happens Israel loses support and there can be peace in the middle east maybe.
When did that happen? The closest was people pointing out, correctly, that if you actually cared about Israel’s actions it was obvious that Trump would be worse. That’s not defending genocide, that’s trying to prevent people from making stupid decisions for noble reasons.
You know the genocide predates the US election by about a year right? People were not talking about Trump. You can go back for yourself, on lemmy.world, in October 2023, liberals were defending Israel’s genocide en masse.
Yeah I didn’t see any of that. I saw people speaking up for Palestine. I can’t say with certainly that it never happened, but it definitely wasn’t “en masse”.
Oh wow, we’re already in the “one day, everyone will always have been against this” era. Great. Liberal amnesia is a hell of a drug.
I’m telling you what I saw, and I was extremely active. I saw no significant defense of the Biden/Harris administration on Gaza except when it came to the election, and again only to point out that Trump would be objectively worse.
When Russia started their genocide in Ukraine those same tankies cheered it though.
I’m sorry, the invasion of Ukraine is a terrible thing, and definitely illegal, but it is not a genocide. Not a single human rights organization or anything like the ICJ, UN, ICC is calling it a genocide.
Youre right I don’t think it’s correct at all to call it a genocide. I think they’re just hypersensitive to the minimizing language tankies use a lot, where a lot of historians said “the uyghur genocide” and tankies say “uhm technically there was no mention of genocide from this international rights body so that’s an overreaction.” The implication being that sure it’s not good what’s happening to them, but it’s not THAT bad.
Tankies do a similar thing with Ukraine where they say “they’re just taking back some of the land they rightfully control,” or some other minimization.
No when you kidnap children, strip them of their citizenship and forcibly adopt them out that’s genocide.
Technically that’s ethnic cleansing.
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
This part matters a lot. If we ignore it, anyone killing any member of any group can be said to commit a genocide. Showing this is typically quite difficult in court cases, because it’s pretty hard to read someone’s mind, and very few people are stupid or arrogant enough to announce such intentions.
Israeli officials are either so stupid or arrogant, going around saying stuff like “kill them, kill their mothers, kill their children”, “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. … This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it’s absolutely not true.”, “If we don’t give them food, they will move…”, and so on. And please don’t underestimate this “and so on”. There’s pages and pages of Israeli officials basically saying “we’re committing genocide”.
Normally it takes years of investigative work after the fact to even get a peep out of the ICJ, but here they conceded that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide about 4 months in. That’s huge. And a key part of that is the fact that South Africa showed Israel’s intent. And that’s just something we haven’t done for Russia’s actions yet. Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine has been going on for years, and there’s no plausible genocide ICJ ruling against Russia, and not for lack of trying. The evidence of intent has as of yet not been found.
Russia is currently not in the position to carry out a genocide, unlike Israel, so technically that can be correct. However, not everything is in the actions, something is in the intent as well (trying to commit a crime and failing can still be illegal and punishable), and Russia has made its heinous plans quite clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Russia_Should_Do_with_Ukraine
That is absolutely correct. Genocide, however, is not one of those things. A significant portion of the definition of genocide consists of actions. So when you say someone is committing a genocide, you’re saying they’re doing some specific stuff with some very specific intentions. One of the two is not enough. You need both.
That’s true. Shooting someone but missing is murderous, but not a murder, and trying to commit a genocide is genocidal but not a genocide.
Thank you for proving my point.
Ukraine is a genocide. ICJ is trying a case about that very fact.
https://www.ejiltalk.org/another-setback-for-ukraine-the-icj-declares-russias-counter-claims-in-the-ukraine-v-russia-genocide-case-admissible/
The ICJ is hearing counterclaims that Ukraine is committing genocide. So by your standards, Ukraine is committing genocide too. That doesn’t hold up to my standards, so I don’t believe Ukraine is committing genocide (or Russia for that matter).
I only brought up the ICJ because you mentioned it but I don’t need anything besides my eyes to see the truth of the genocide that’s happening.
Ok I guess we have slightly different standards for calling things a genocide then. What did your eyes see that makes you call Russia’s illegal invasion a genocide? What is your personal definition of genocide?
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
See the fifth part where the Russians stripped Ukrainian children of their nationality, forced Russia nationality on them and forcibly adopted them to Russians.
https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
Evidence they’re being stripped of their Ukrainian identity?