They’re not taking it too far, you’re doing apologia by shifting the goal posts.
Markets != Capitalism.
Heavily regulated markets != Socialism.
See your first point there?
That’s the main difference.
Everything else that follows is going to be either a description of either how regulated/redistributive a capitalist economy is, or the precise mechanism of how capital is distributed/controlled, and how its proceeds are distributed in a socialist/communist economy.
Also your point 5 is basically incorrect. ‘Significantly’ incorrect.
In capitalism, you just get a cartel of extremely influential fianceers and central bankers that direct and manage capital flows and monetary policy via complex and esoteric means, which are certainly not decentralized.
‘Retail Investors’ / ‘Dumb Money’ are very well directed and herded by the signals the capital/monetary cartel puts out.
As an example, everyone’s 401k and pension plan either already has or is going to be buying SpaceX stocks, ie, be the bagholders for when that blows up. That’s happening because of the morass of rules and some recent changes to those rules that govern how all those funds must be managed.
You did read the ToS on all your investments, right? And keep up with all the changes to them?
Well obviously not, but, legally, upfront disclosure basically just is indemnity, so, you agreed to this. If you disagree that you agreed, good luck personally suing the company that has all of your money, and hundreds of billions of other people’s money.
You are also either ignoring or perhaps ignorant of large scale worker owned co-ops such as Mondragon, that are essentially a modern evolution of anarcho-syndicalism.
The ‘company’ itself has a form of democratic representative governance, where workers have a say in who their bosses will be, what the business strategy will be, etc, as opposed to the authoritarian governance internal model of most capitalist businesses.
Technically, Mondragon exists within a grander capitalist system and framework, but chances are that a wide swath of people would describe it as an operationalized form of socialism.
Also, it is not possible to have any societal or economic system that is value neutral… any complex system governing humans is going to be ultimately be created by humans, and is either going to intentionally or unintentionally create a framework that rewards some behaviors and activities an punishes others.
Any system of rewards and punishments just literally is a value system, we’re social mammals, we learn from the environment we are in.
But you then list prerequisites for capitalism… as if they are value systems? Where 1, often 2, hell, often all 3 of those prereqs are also prereqs/components of systems that call themselves socialist or communist?
Anyway yes you are correct that both socialist systems and capitalist systems have much variability within them, but again the key distinction between the two is who actually controls the capital, and how.
In capitalism, it is literally always a cartel. A cartel that often funds a lot of propoganda devoted to convincing people they’re not a cartel and its actually all a meritocracy.
In socialism, you get a range from… the state directly controls all capital and major industry… to the anarcho-syndicalist model of worker collectives ‘owning’ and governing their own capital.
They’re not taking it too far, you’re doing apologia by shifting the goal posts.
Markets != Capitalism.
Heavily regulated markets != Socialism.
See your first point there?
That’s the main difference.
Everything else that follows is going to be either a description of either how regulated/redistributive a capitalist economy is, or the precise mechanism of how capital is distributed/controlled, and how its proceeds are distributed in a socialist/communist economy.
Also your point 5 is basically incorrect. ‘Significantly’ incorrect.
In capitalism, you just get a cartel of extremely influential fianceers and central bankers that direct and manage capital flows and monetary policy via complex and esoteric means, which are certainly not decentralized.
‘Retail Investors’ / ‘Dumb Money’ are very well directed and herded by the signals the capital/monetary cartel puts out.
As an example, everyone’s 401k and pension plan either already has or is going to be buying SpaceX stocks, ie, be the bagholders for when that blows up. That’s happening because of the morass of rules and some recent changes to those rules that govern how all those funds must be managed.
You did read the ToS on all your investments, right? And keep up with all the changes to them?
Well obviously not, but, legally, upfront disclosure basically just is indemnity, so, you agreed to this. If you disagree that you agreed, good luck personally suing the company that has all of your money, and hundreds of billions of other people’s money.
You are also either ignoring or perhaps ignorant of large scale worker owned co-ops such as Mondragon, that are essentially a modern evolution of anarcho-syndicalism.
The ‘company’ itself has a form of democratic representative governance, where workers have a say in who their bosses will be, what the business strategy will be, etc, as opposed to the authoritarian governance internal model of most capitalist businesses.
Technically, Mondragon exists within a grander capitalist system and framework, but chances are that a wide swath of people would describe it as an operationalized form of socialism.
Also, it is not possible to have any societal or economic system that is value neutral… any complex system governing humans is going to be ultimately be created by humans, and is either going to intentionally or unintentionally create a framework that rewards some behaviors and activities an punishes others.
Any system of rewards and punishments just literally is a value system, we’re social mammals, we learn from the environment we are in.
But you then list prerequisites for capitalism… as if they are value systems? Where 1, often 2, hell, often all 3 of those prereqs are also prereqs/components of systems that call themselves socialist or communist?
Anyway yes you are correct that both socialist systems and capitalist systems have much variability within them, but again the key distinction between the two is who actually controls the capital, and how.
In capitalism, it is literally always a cartel. A cartel that often funds a lot of propoganda devoted to convincing people they’re not a cartel and its actually all a meritocracy.
In socialism, you get a range from… the state directly controls all capital and major industry… to the anarcho-syndicalist model of worker collectives ‘owning’ and governing their own capital.