I’m confused as to which parts of the left it’s supposed to split. The communists and the democratic socialists? The anarchists and the worker democracy folks? The DSA from independents like Sanders?
I feel like the message of the post is more so about uniting as the left flank against pro-corporate politicians like most of the democrats and republicans.
The goal of the post is to pit the far left against he moderate left so that either one side stays home, or the other side votes with the right.
This is fucking stupid. Eliminating MAGA has to be job #1, nothing else happens until that does. MAGA needs to lose in 2028 by margins unheard of in modern elections. like 75-80% margins. Failing that, they’ll just come back with more dirty tricks…
I practice the “Vote left in EVERY election” I will always vote for the furthest left candidate no matter what. In the primary, this means voting for the DemSoc or the very liberal… But in the General it sometimes mean voting for the moderate just base don them not being MAGA…
The “far left” principles align with most normal people. When was the last time Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer represented your interests.
So, OPs post isn’t trying to split the party… The actions of corporate dems ARE splitting the party. Just look at “left leaning” media coverage on Mandami, El-Sayed and Angie Nixon. They are spouting the same things you are hearing on Fox News… Yet, let’s blame OP for the “split” and not the people in charge whose fault it is. I think they call that Stockholm Syndrome.
You people always talk like the Dems are a mono-party that votes in lockstep like the Republicans when they’re the big tent party consisting of everyone from MAGA adjacent to as close to socialist as the US can get, and it’s really transparent what you’re trying to do. If both sides were the same and voting didn’t matter republicans wouldn’t be trying so hard to prevent people from voting but y’all are too fuckin oblivious to see how obvious that is.
What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody mentioned a both sides argument. Stop creating strawmen. Everybody should vote. And if the left wants to win, the DNC need to abandon their corporate first mentality or they will be left in the dust of history.
If the left wants to win they need to vote in the fucking primaries and prevent republicans from winning the generals, which means voting for democrats. Everything else gets republicans elected.
Except that “normal people” aren’t the ones voting.
America is a center-left country… Like it or not, the far-left policies don’t resonate with more than half of the idiots in this country… I agree with you. Thinking people embrace them…but accusing Americans of being “Thinking people” is kind of a laugh…
So vote as far left as you can in every election. That’s how you drag the country to the left. It’s not going to be an overnight fix, it’s taken 250 years to get this fucked up, it’s going to take at least 2-3 generations of hard work to get it back.
But we START be eliminating MAGA from the american consciousness, and the only way we do that is by defeating them so soundly the money dries up because corporate america views them as a lost cause. That is a vital first step and nothing else works until they’re gone.
You are starting with several false assumptions. A couple of which: (1) the center-left politicians actually want to eliminate maga and (2) progressive candidates are to the left of the American populace. Bout assumptions are incorrect. I’m not going to convince you regarding either. But, the bottom line is, The only way to eliminate maga and maga-lite influence in us politics is to support politicians that focus on affordability issues and congressional fiance reform. That is a platform farmers in the Midwest, laborers on the coast, and even the populace of Texas can get behind. Watering down a message to appeal to a central base ends up pissing off everybody except for the most milquetoast of electorate. That’s the reason Trump is won twice and also almost won in 2020.
Just because the people in your circle are all hard-left, doesn’t mean the country is. We’re a 52-48 (barely) liberal leaning country… so yes, most progressive candidates are to the left of the average american… Slightly more conservative candidates are to the right of the average american… Most fall somewhere in the center.
If you want to move the country to the left, convincing the left-moderates isn’t the hard part… It’s convincing the center-left moderates to come over… the ones who believe the government does spend too much, but also who believe we do need to maintain a strong military and use it wisely…
I vote for any candidate that puts education first in a very real way. The only way we dig ourselves out of the hole we’re in is restoring the education cuts that started with Ronald Regan in the 80’s… The end result of that being generations of people who aren’t capable of critical thought in any real way…
I’m in a solid red state. I believe the “average American” is further left than you do. Centrism is a lie that has been shoved down our throats by every media outlet for most of my adult life. For the first time in my lifetime, most of us have access to media that isn’t controlled by the ruling capitalists. The center left alignment will continue to swing further left so long as this is the case. I know that 30% of the populace would vote right regardless… But that 40% will be responsive to progressive messages, which are frankly working class messages, when most of them are in the working class these days.
Edit: btw, i respect your perspective, which was close to mine not long ago
Nah I’m still pretty center-left. I believe in taxing billionaires but don’t believe that every tax and every government program is perfect. Cuts need to happen… I believe in a strong military however think we need to be MUCH more judicious in our use of it… I also believe in a strong public education system. I think that choice is choice, not because I’m pro-abortion but because I’m pro staying the fuck out of other peoples’ business. Same goes for Gay Marriage and Trans rights. Absolutely not my business.
you either don’t believe that the liberal democratic “left” constantly attacks the real left because it endangers the status quo, or you think the real left should ignore it and still team up with them even as they do everything to weaken them.
if the first is the case, i believe you should do more research and i can post some links.
if the second, i think that’s a dumb strategy and never really worked. it’s well known that liberals always team up with the fascists in the end to protect the status quo.
I believe that the cold, hard math of game theory shows that trying to work outside the two-party system is a fool’s errand, so Democratic Party must be usurped from within. Discouraging people from voting is absolutely unhelpful for that and is tantamount to traitorously helping the corporatists.
This discussion is about “splitting the left,” and voting is the primary way in which that manifests. Of course we were talking about voting (and in particular, how posts like this discourage it), even if the particular word wasn’t used yet.
The parent comment asserted without evidence that “posts like this are designed to split the left.” Then Štěpán responded by doubting that the unity the parent comment implied exists in the first place. This is all a dispute of facts; actions can then be taken based on those facts but so far you’re assuming an argument “don’t vote for the Democrats” that nobody made. Or, in other words, there are conclusions you can make from “the centrists actually hate us and everything we stand for” other than “don’t vote in the election.”
The second is literally the only way party reform has occurred historically. If you think change can happen another way you’re delusional. You’re literally declaring that it has to be full tilt republican fascism or actual revolution because both of those are infinitely more likely than a third party ever having power. So are you just an accelerationist? You working for republicans? Are you even American? You a tankie? What’s your goal here, because stopping the rise of fascism sure doesn’t seem to rate for you.
You are on the wrong side of this issue. Stop blaming everybody else and look at your own assumptions and beliefs. You’re acting more like a controlled op than the people you’re responding to.
Oh I fully believe it’s happening, but I think it’s a problem that is amplified by the right to suppress liberal turnout…and it works. Look at 2024. It fucking worked.
And it’s going to happen again in 2028 if we don’t knock it the fuck off.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA…
Step 2 through 10 involve actually fixing the system. But none of it will happen if step 1 isn’t completed FIRST.
I just don’t feel confident that it was the propaganda of the right suppressing liberal interest, and not the authentic apathy of people not finding democracy in the democratic party.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA…
I also don’t feel confident the current for of the democratic party is equipped for this, and I think not pushing them to do better is how we went from Biden to Trump 2.
I actually liked Harris. She was smart, skilled, and experienced. But she had a vagina so 7 million Joe Biden voters refused to show up… (I know that’s only part of the reason, but I also know that misogyny is just as prevalent in the left as it is in the right.
I vote down ballot every election, I am not who you need to convince. I am explaining to you that, as we saw in 24, when people don’t feel heard they don’t show up. You can take another stab at corporate dems trying to vote shame enough people into showing up, or you can learn from the past and realize shame doesn’t motivate votes.
I’m at the point that I might be the one to stop showing up… I mean, if people are so focused on their pet project that they have stopped giving a shit about stopping the overarching evil, then maybe it’s time to let the evil win.
Maybe you could ride this emotion into a shred of empathy and imagine yourself being a Palestinian who had 20+ family members killed under Biden, watched the DNC attendees cover their ears when faced with the government they support, watched your close friends tear gassed and arrested for begging your school to stop giving money to the slaughter of your family; then after no primary, no voice at the DNC, and a cheered promise of the most lethal military in the world, you’re insulted for having a “pet project” that is over shadowed by the ‘real’ evil.
America is evil when democrats are in power too, and if you want to throw a tantrum instead of be productive, I can’t stop you. But maybe you should realize there are people that have been at this fight longer than we’ve been alive and are trying more than just voting.
I fully admit I fucking hate what the Israelis’ are doing, and think they should be cut off and left to twist… But the middle east isn’t on us, other than the fact that we continue to meddle in it.
But I’m more worried about shit happening here… We can’t solve the world’s problems until we fix ours first… I have lots of empathy…for people here dying because of lack of healthcare, for victims of right-wing fascism in the US…
We can’t be the world police until we fix our own house. That has to happen FIRST.
I’m doing the exact opposite. This isn’t a temper tantrum, this is a desire to live my life to it’s fullest when the world around me has decided it no longer gives a fuck about my general wellbeing.
Single-issue voting is bollocks. It’s the same logic gun-owners and christians use to support horrid candidates no matter what… “They are pro-gun” is all they need to overlook the rest of the hell.
30% of the voters are far-right… That’s pretty much established. 30% are far-left. Like it or not, the middle 40% are the ones who actually make the decisions, and I think those are the ones they’re trying to appeal to… Almost every election moves based on the people who are willing to look at both sides and make a decision.
I always assume a politician’s message is going to change depending on what news channel they’re on, because they’re talking to a different group of people. You get on Fox news talking to fox-news-troglodytes and start spouting DSA rhetoric you’re going to get ignored, and it’s a waste of time.
Posts like this are designed to split the left so that the right can keep power.
I’m confused as to which parts of the left it’s supposed to split. The communists and the democratic socialists? The anarchists and the worker democracy folks? The DSA from independents like Sanders?
I feel like the message of the post is more so about uniting as the left flank against pro-corporate politicians like most of the democrats and republicans.
The goal of the post is to pit the far left against he moderate left so that either one side stays home, or the other side votes with the right.
This is fucking stupid. Eliminating MAGA has to be job #1, nothing else happens until that does. MAGA needs to lose in 2028 by margins unheard of in modern elections. like 75-80% margins. Failing that, they’ll just come back with more dirty tricks…
I practice the “Vote left in EVERY election” I will always vote for the furthest left candidate no matter what. In the primary, this means voting for the DemSoc or the very liberal… But in the General it sometimes mean voting for the moderate just base don them not being MAGA…
This is the ONLY way we get control back.
The “far left” principles align with most normal people. When was the last time Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer represented your interests.
So, OPs post isn’t trying to split the party… The actions of corporate dems ARE splitting the party. Just look at “left leaning” media coverage on Mandami, El-Sayed and Angie Nixon. They are spouting the same things you are hearing on Fox News… Yet, let’s blame OP for the “split” and not the people in charge whose fault it is. I think they call that Stockholm Syndrome.
You people always talk like the Dems are a mono-party that votes in lockstep like the Republicans when they’re the big tent party consisting of everyone from MAGA adjacent to as close to socialist as the US can get, and it’s really transparent what you’re trying to do. If both sides were the same and voting didn’t matter republicans wouldn’t be trying so hard to prevent people from voting but y’all are too fuckin oblivious to see how obvious that is.
What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody mentioned a both sides argument. Stop creating strawmen. Everybody should vote. And if the left wants to win, the DNC need to abandon their corporate first mentality or they will be left in the dust of history.
If the left wants to win they need to vote in the fucking primaries and prevent republicans from winning the generals, which means voting for democrats. Everything else gets republicans elected.
We get primaries this time?
There is an old say8ng “democrats fall in l9ve, republicans fall in line.”
Still amazingly true, and why we keep losing.
Except that “normal people” aren’t the ones voting.
America is a center-left country… Like it or not, the far-left policies don’t resonate with more than half of the idiots in this country… I agree with you. Thinking people embrace them…but accusing Americans of being “Thinking people” is kind of a laugh…
So vote as far left as you can in every election. That’s how you drag the country to the left. It’s not going to be an overnight fix, it’s taken 250 years to get this fucked up, it’s going to take at least 2-3 generations of hard work to get it back.
But we START be eliminating MAGA from the american consciousness, and the only way we do that is by defeating them so soundly the money dries up because corporate america views them as a lost cause. That is a vital first step and nothing else works until they’re gone.
You are starting with several false assumptions. A couple of which: (1) the center-left politicians actually want to eliminate maga and (2) progressive candidates are to the left of the American populace. Bout assumptions are incorrect. I’m not going to convince you regarding either. But, the bottom line is, The only way to eliminate maga and maga-lite influence in us politics is to support politicians that focus on affordability issues and congressional fiance reform. That is a platform farmers in the Midwest, laborers on the coast, and even the populace of Texas can get behind. Watering down a message to appeal to a central base ends up pissing off everybody except for the most milquetoast of electorate. That’s the reason Trump is won twice and also almost won in 2020.
Just because the people in your circle are all hard-left, doesn’t mean the country is. We’re a 52-48 (barely) liberal leaning country… so yes, most progressive candidates are to the left of the average american… Slightly more conservative candidates are to the right of the average american… Most fall somewhere in the center.
If you want to move the country to the left, convincing the left-moderates isn’t the hard part… It’s convincing the center-left moderates to come over… the ones who believe the government does spend too much, but also who believe we do need to maintain a strong military and use it wisely…
I vote for any candidate that puts education first in a very real way. The only way we dig ourselves out of the hole we’re in is restoring the education cuts that started with Ronald Regan in the 80’s… The end result of that being generations of people who aren’t capable of critical thought in any real way…
I’m in a solid red state. I believe the “average American” is further left than you do. Centrism is a lie that has been shoved down our throats by every media outlet for most of my adult life. For the first time in my lifetime, most of us have access to media that isn’t controlled by the ruling capitalists. The center left alignment will continue to swing further left so long as this is the case. I know that 30% of the populace would vote right regardless… But that 40% will be responsive to progressive messages, which are frankly working class messages, when most of them are in the working class these days.
Edit: btw, i respect your perspective, which was close to mine not long ago
Nah I’m still pretty center-left. I believe in taxing billionaires but don’t believe that every tax and every government program is perfect. Cuts need to happen… I believe in a strong military however think we need to be MUCH more judicious in our use of it… I also believe in a strong public education system. I think that choice is choice, not because I’m pro-abortion but because I’m pro staying the fuck out of other peoples’ business. Same goes for Gay Marriage and Trans rights. Absolutely not my business.
So yeah, I’m still a centrist.
i’m being paid directly by charlie kirk from his secret bunker in tel aviv
You don’t get to say “we” if you tell people to shut the fuck up and vote for your preference regardless of what they believe.
They are down voting you for speaking the truth
I’m used to it. Being the voice of reason is tiresome sometimes…
you either don’t believe that the liberal democratic “left” constantly attacks the real left because it endangers the status quo, or you think the real left should ignore it and still team up with them even as they do everything to weaken them.
if the first is the case, i believe you should do more research and i can post some links.
if the second, i think that’s a dumb strategy and never really worked. it’s well known that liberals always team up with the fascists in the end to protect the status quo.
I believe that the cold, hard math of game theory shows that trying to work outside the two-party system is a fool’s errand, so Democratic Party must be usurped from within. Discouraging people from voting is absolutely unhelpful for that and is tantamount to traitorously helping the corporatists.
Using the phrase “game theory” when you really mean “I’ve had a bit of a think” is an antipattern, and much more transparent than you seem to think.
Removed by mod
Literally nobody said anything about voting.
This discussion is about “splitting the left,” and voting is the primary way in which that manifests. Of course we were talking about voting (and in particular, how posts like this discourage it), even if the particular word wasn’t used yet.
The parent comment asserted without evidence that “posts like this are designed to split the left.” Then Štěpán responded by doubting that the unity the parent comment implied exists in the first place. This is all a dispute of facts; actions can then be taken based on those facts but so far you’re assuming an argument “don’t vote for the Democrats” that nobody made. Or, in other words, there are conclusions you can make from “the centrists actually hate us and everything we stand for” other than “don’t vote in the election.”
The second is literally the only way party reform has occurred historically. If you think change can happen another way you’re delusional. You’re literally declaring that it has to be full tilt republican fascism or actual revolution because both of those are infinitely more likely than a third party ever having power. So are you just an accelerationist? You working for republicans? Are you even American? You a tankie? What’s your goal here, because stopping the rise of fascism sure doesn’t seem to rate for you.
You are on the wrong side of this issue. Stop blaming everybody else and look at your own assumptions and beliefs. You’re acting more like a controlled op than the people you’re responding to.
Bot ass comment.
Oh I fully believe it’s happening, but I think it’s a problem that is amplified by the right to suppress liberal turnout…and it works. Look at 2024. It fucking worked.
And it’s going to happen again in 2028 if we don’t knock it the fuck off.
Step 1 has to be the elimination of MAGA…
Step 2 through 10 involve actually fixing the system. But none of it will happen if step 1 isn’t completed FIRST.
I just don’t feel confident that it was the propaganda of the right suppressing liberal interest, and not the authentic apathy of people not finding democracy in the democratic party.
I also don’t feel confident the current for of the democratic party is equipped for this, and I think not pushing them to do better is how we went from Biden to Trump 2.
Push them to do better by voting in the primaries… but don’t give up and stay home when the candidate you like doesn’t win the primary. Fucking vote.
Yeah! if the people didnt want kamala to be the one to run against Trump, they would have voted so in the primary.
I actually liked Harris. She was smart, skilled, and experienced. But she had a vagina so 7 million Joe Biden voters refused to show up… (I know that’s only part of the reason, but I also know that misogyny is just as prevalent in the left as it is in the right.
I vote down ballot every election, I am not who you need to convince. I am explaining to you that, as we saw in 24, when people don’t feel heard they don’t show up. You can take another stab at corporate dems trying to vote shame enough people into showing up, or you can learn from the past and realize shame doesn’t motivate votes.
I’m at the point that I might be the one to stop showing up… I mean, if people are so focused on their pet project that they have stopped giving a shit about stopping the overarching evil, then maybe it’s time to let the evil win.
Im so glad youre being honest with yourself.
Maybe you could ride this emotion into a shred of empathy and imagine yourself being a Palestinian who had 20+ family members killed under Biden, watched the DNC attendees cover their ears when faced with the government they support, watched your close friends tear gassed and arrested for begging your school to stop giving money to the slaughter of your family; then after no primary, no voice at the DNC, and a cheered promise of the most lethal military in the world, you’re insulted for having a “pet project” that is over shadowed by the ‘real’ evil.
America is evil when democrats are in power too, and if you want to throw a tantrum instead of be productive, I can’t stop you. But maybe you should realize there are people that have been at this fight longer than we’ve been alive and are trying more than just voting.
I fully admit I fucking hate what the Israelis’ are doing, and think they should be cut off and left to twist… But the middle east isn’t on us, other than the fact that we continue to meddle in it.
But I’m more worried about shit happening here… We can’t solve the world’s problems until we fix ours first… I have lots of empathy…for people here dying because of lack of healthcare, for victims of right-wing fascism in the US…
We can’t be the world police until we fix our own house. That has to happen FIRST.
I’m doing the exact opposite. This isn’t a temper tantrum, this is a desire to live my life to it’s fullest when the world around me has decided it no longer gives a fuck about my general wellbeing.
Single-issue voting is bollocks. It’s the same logic gun-owners and christians use to support horrid candidates no matter what… “They are pro-gun” is all they need to overlook the rest of the hell.
I think he is splitting people are the establishment democrats who are going to fox news to attack the leftists and DSA
30% of the voters are far-right… That’s pretty much established. 30% are far-left. Like it or not, the middle 40% are the ones who actually make the decisions, and I think those are the ones they’re trying to appeal to… Almost every election moves based on the people who are willing to look at both sides and make a decision.
I always assume a politician’s message is going to change depending on what news channel they’re on, because they’re talking to a different group of people. You get on Fox news talking to fox-news-troglodytes and start spouting DSA rhetoric you’re going to get ignored, and it’s a waste of time.