Opponents say [Washington state] voters were persuaded at least partly because the initiative and its boosters exploited deep-seated prejudices and misunderstandings about transgender people to erode their rights.
Opponents say [Washington state] voters were persuaded at least partly because the initiative and its boosters exploited deep-seated prejudices and misunderstandings about transgender people to erode their rights.
Your own study that you just linked acknowledges a higher lean mass difference WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE MORE MUSCLE. The study says this doesn’t ‘necessarily automatically translate to greater athletic ability’ which personally I think is horseshit.
Nor does it address differences in musculo-skeletal mass. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/
It is absolute horseshit you think the science is squarely in your corner on this, because it most DEFINITELY isn’t.
What part of what I said above disagrees with you that this should be between a trans person and their doctor? That’s literally what I said. Unless consensus has changed post-puberty HRT is how they do things, blockers are used until puberty stops. There are advocates out there who are saying give the HRT and blockers OTC not understanding you can’t take both, and think that such a thing should be OTC and at the child’s decision alone which is INSANE.
Personally don’t plan on shutting up especially when you still haven’t addressed how you keep someone undergoing hormone treatments from beating doping in sports too. There are definitely issues with cheating already with the cis crowd, and it is actually much much easier for someone who’s taking hormones already to dope. Their levels can drop back down quicker during testing making it harder to detect cheating and steroid use.
Also it’s patently ridiculous to merge women’s and men’s leagues as Venus and Serena showed, and what my personal anecdote was about. Women can’t compete on the same level as men physically with sports. It’s ridiculous that Chess is separated by men and women’s leagues sure. But anything physical? You’re joking right? Or you’ve never done sports?
Again your feelings do not matter. The study I linked and the study you linked say the same thing. I’ve bolded the relevant text for the illiterate.
From my link, “While transgender women exhibited higher lean mass than cisgender women, their physical fitness was comparable. Current evidence is mostly low certainty and has heterogenous quality but does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender.”
From your link, “While data are still scarce, the limited information available does not suggest that trans men and trans women have much, if any, athletic advantage post-transition. Indeed, in most cases they perform more similarly to those matching their gender identity, or somewhere between cis men and women.”
It doesn’t matter what you feel like the truth is. It doesn’t matter what you call horseshit because your words are not as reliable as the statements of doctors and researchers. Nobody cares that you’ve done your own research because you aren’t an expert if you obviously can’t read.
As for your argument about advocates of OTC, that’s a nice strawman to build up, but until I see doctors widely recommending over the counter HRT for trans youth to self medicate, it’s meaningless to get all pissy about it. It’s the equivalent of claiming, “Someone on Twitter told me they advocate for drunk driving so I think we should just ban cars all together.”
And I don’t know what should be done about sports, but that’s because I’m not a sports medicine expert and clearly, neither are you. It’s great that you really like sports and value the integrity of the field or whatever, but your feelings about your hobby should have no bearing on wider social policy.
Again, hotly debated topic and even by their own results there ARE differences. Lean muscle mass IS greater in trans female athletes. Doping is easier to conceal in trans male athletes.
Bold assumption that I didn’t go to college and don’t have a bachelors in Exercise Science. I mean all I’ve ever wanted to do in life is train athletes lol.
But hey you can believe what you want and I’ll certainly continue believing what I do. I think your problem is largely that most sports at the moment, the sports medicine experts ARE advocating against trans athlete participation. The opinions of the researchers and scientists in those studies concluded that lean muscle mass doesn’t result in a competitive advantage. That is totally NOT the consensus of the field at large, and why people educated on the subject like myself are leery of the political impact on studies like this. Lean muscle mass as percentage of body weight remains the best predictor of physical ability. That’s not even addressing musculo-skeletal differences which deals with how muscle attaches to the skeleton or how muscle structurally forms, which IS different between the sexes, and unfortunately, presently HRT doesn’t affect, those differences persist regardless of puberty blockers present in prepubescence. So… tech has to get better to transition more completely.
So your best possible argument is “the evidence is inconclusive.”
THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE WE PERSECUTING A MINORITY GROUP WHEN THE BEST EVIDENCE YOU CAN HAVE IS “MAYBE THERE’S A TINY DIFFERENCE, IDK?”
Seriously. Listen to yourself. We’re talking about the civil rights of real human beings. That is NOT the kind of thing you fuck with unless you have an extremely serious reason to do so. Like, if after we let trans women play sports, suddenly we were dominating competitions left and right, obviously outperforming cis women in an unfair way.
The best shit you got is, “well, the evidence is inconclusive.”
It’s called innocent til proven fucking guilty. You don’t persecute people on a whim or a hunch.
My personal opinion on the subject is that the inherent lean mass increase and musculo-skeletal differences which affect how the muscle connects to the bone and is structured. Differences that persist despite puberty blockers. Those specific differences are still being studied but it is my FIRM opinion based on differences between men and women in strength that are very much apparent, this is an unfair advantage period, and I cannot and will not support trans athletes, period.
Trans women aren’t men. You just moronically try to map the performance of cis men onto trans women, blindly assuming they’re the same.
And “your personal opinion” is just “my bullshit bigotry.”
Common sense and gut feelings are what built Jim Crow.
Yeah I’m not going to be bullied or insulted into believing anything different. Nor am I going to be compared to Jim Crow era laws. The percentage of trans athletes is so small I’m very comfortable excluding them because I believe strongly the science supports the FACT that they have an inherent advantage, not to mention the increased ability to cheat among trans males.
Oh wait. You are just a bigot, going off your moderation history. I’m perfectly fine bullying you. You’re below contempt.
Guess I should just vote Republican then and embrace it, thanks for convincing me of that!
The studies we both posted are reliable when you read them wrong and thought they agreed with you, but now they are unreliable when I point out you read them wrong and they disagree with you. What incredible judgement you’ve displayed. Your thoughts and ideas are really good and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and discussion boards where you and other “people educated on the subject” congregate. /s
You’re reading the conclusions of the researchers and ignoring the actual numbers, which again, for the very last time actually do support a physical difference on muscle, and at this point you’ve descended to ad hominem and we’ll agree to disagree.
The researchers know those numbers and decided that they do not constitute a significant enough difference to say trans people have an advantage over cis people. That’s the conclusion they came to. That’s how conclusions work. They take all the research they did and come to a conclusion.
You keep pointing to your incomplete reading of the data and expecting me to take you seriously. You keep talking about how you feel like these differences must confer some significant advantage to trans people even though researchers keep coming to the same conclusion of, “no advantages”. You’re like a flat earther who keeps saying, “but the ground feels flat and researchers said that level tools are accurate.”
If your only proof is, “my feelings”, then what the hell else am I supposed to talk about? If you don’t want your feelings to be hurt, stop using them as proof. If you “feel” like these researchers conclusions are wrong, go prove their conclusions wrong. I’m sure there’s a lot of money to be made for bogus research proving trans people have and advantage over cis people.
Lol you keep saying it’s ‘my feelings’. It’s not. For the final time. My degree is in Excercise Science. The field’s opinion on that is lean muscle mass is the best predictor for athletic performance, period. And this politically biased study says that it doesn’t matter, but offers ZERO explanation for why they say something that definitely is NOT the scientific consensus. Which definitely makes me mistrust the study, kind of a lot, if you can point out where they explain why lean muscle was not considered to be important, please feel free. But honestly, that’s like saying the sky is green. Now, clearly your feelings are hurt and you’re a fanatic who can’t hear anything other than what they want to, so good day.
Also, if this thread is indicitive of how trans supporters act, and their general thoughts on the science behind the topic, maybe I was very wrong to have supported trans issues. Definitely food for thought for me today.
More proof you can’t read.
Lol who can’t read again?
Jesus Christ yeah I’m done with transgender support on any level after you. If this is the level of intellectual honesty and scientific literacy I can expect.