This meme ignores a ton of nuance, as there are many who publicly appeared to support the Nazis but worked behind the scenes to stop Hitler or save people’s lives.
Schindler, Hosenfeld, and likely tens of thousands of Germans whose names will never be remembered (because many couldn’t safely use their real names) but whose stories survive because of their bravery.
While I agree that people should publicly oppose authoritarian regimes where you can, it’s not always possible to do when you live within a totalitarian structure.
This is the nature of the medium, it’s really, really hard to make a complex, nuanced “meme.”
Figure out the most important, easy-to-digest-by-illiterate-teens message you want to impart, then edit it down to just the most black-and-white idea you can impart, because I promise you… nothing else will make a dent.
Since you already added facts, here’s another: The word in question is “Mitläufer”, which translates to Nazi sympathizer. Sympathizing with the general goal of Nazis more than with their victims is IMO just as bad, as they rationalize all the bad as “a sacrifice worth the goal”.
yeah, we had a whole vocabulary we’ve lost. sympathizers, quislings, resistance, there’s a whole lot we’re going to have to remember and/or reinvent unfortunately.
Yeah, historically it’s a bit more complicated. Widerstand gegen den Nationalsozialismus which was an unorganized and very splintered resistance movement existed. There’s a lot of reasons for why they couldn’t quite make the impact they wanted, besides being splintered, but that’s probably the largest one.
Besides that though, the Germans did attempt to cleanse their image after the world war with the Wehrmacht myth. The myth essentially states that the regular army had no knowledge of the acts committed by the SS, that the average German solider was bravely fighting for their country under false pretenses. Obviously it’s not true, but it seems to have been rather effective unfortunately.
They should have acted more forcefully before it became totalitarian. For those who came of age into it I can agree with you but it was a small portion of the population.
The Nazis pulled a project 1932 immediately on taking power and absolutely obliterated every possible opposition within months of taking power through a wide variety of tactics. The gap between the Reichstag fire and utter totalitarianism was very, very short and in an era where information spread far more slowly.
They never won more than 37% of the popular vote (though it almost certainly would have been higher had there been elections later on and before the war, we just can’t know the exact amount as there weren’t any).
Well people looked at that and said, you know what, that’s what we need here.
Or alternatively our other leaders saw that being planned and said, you know what people would like instead? The Status Quo! Let’s run as the establishment as the only option other than Nazis.
Well, some people did and no one is calling those people Nazis. But the people who said eh, I don’t need to do anything about this, I think it’s fair to criticize them. Yes, their resistance was best enacted collectively but they needed to make an individual choice to engage in collective resistance. Most did not make this difficult choice.
Well I guess better late than never but what I’m saying is that if enough of those people had acted openly sooner they never would have needed to be secret saboteurs.
They are referred to as “the Good Germans,” the groups that were not nazis and would’ve been expected to stand up in opposition but went along to get along.
Well half of them doesn’t know what they support, many literally think they are opposing nazis by voting in nazis.
The other half think they are fighting nazis pushing for the '“safe” alternative to the nazis, the unpopular aristocrats running as the status quo against nazis running as a reform party in a time of anger and upheaval at the plutocratic rot evident to all.
Very few knew they were supporting nazis, although it’s a percentage, several percent, and that includes almost all of their influencers and leaders. Bannon, congress, prosecutors, judges, the executive branch, state house officials.
Those several percent that knew what they were supporting, they didn’t do it because of eggs, they did it because they think they will benefit, and apparently think they will never be thrown out of the club. That they will benefit, itself showing a lack of understanding on how this would play out.
All true, but they should have known. Politics was never meant to be a spectator sport. It requires work, even as an ordinary citizen. Especially as an ordinary citizen.
I just have difficulty taking this particular viewpoint seriously.
There are books about the two dozen assassination attempts against Hitler, some by ordinary people and some by the Nazis themselves. There are thousands of books about various pockets of resistance. Innumerable films.
To say ‘they didn’t try hard enough’ is, to me, just nonsense.
Yeah there was plenty of resistance from various quarters it just got smashed quickly and wasn’t coordinated enough. Born again Christians were vehemently opposed to the regime for example and suffered harshly for it. Obviously all the lefties etc. too.
On the flip side the Nazis did win over a significant percentage of the population through the late 1930s because of how well the economy was doing, it just never went to a plebiscite so we’ll never know the exact numbers.
They were hard against leftists, unionists, socialists, communists, and the like from the start, and that’s why the industrialists liked them in the first place, and why the west allowed them to fester, because the rich were afraid of the communists, and more afraid of a little reform in general, than putting a single person in absolute power indefinitely.
It really does boggle the mind after you realize this is a dynamic that happens over and over, just as Rome had the same thing a generation before Caesar around the 1st century BC when Sulla came to power on the tail end of Marius’ many consolships. They were afraid of the populares, and reform, and gave dictator powers to sulla that declared himself dictator for life and went on a proscription rampage after violently taking the city, putting up lists of men to kill every day, that soon included his allies, he took the assets of the proscribed and taking his rich allies assets was the end in itself after too long.
But time and again, fear of moderate reform on the “left” leads to supporting an all powerful ruler that carries far more danger to the rich and poor alike.
a nazi is a nazi until forever. bones in the ground? still a fucking nazi worth only to be pissed on.
tried to help get folks out but wore the uniform? still a fucking nazi. even Schindler.
the only GOOD people were the ones who refused outright and may have died trying to destroy the regime.
nazism is a one way fucking street. it has to be. because otherwise in our current era we’ll have, in 30 years, a lot of the same horseshit “i tried but learned too late” rhetoric.
This meme ignores a ton of nuance, as there are many who publicly appeared to support the Nazis but worked behind the scenes to stop Hitler or save people’s lives.
Schindler, Hosenfeld, and likely tens of thousands of Germans whose names will never be remembered (because many couldn’t safely use their real names) but whose stories survive because of their bravery.
While I agree that people should publicly oppose authoritarian regimes where you can, it’s not always possible to do when you live within a totalitarian structure.
This is the nature of the medium, it’s really, really hard to make a complex, nuanced “meme.”
Figure out the most important, easy-to-digest-by-illiterate-teens message you want to impart, then edit it down to just the most black-and-white idea you can impart, because I promise you… nothing else will make a dent.
Since you already added facts, here’s another: The word in question is “Mitläufer”, which translates to Nazi sympathizer. Sympathizing with the general goal of Nazis more than with their victims is IMO just as bad, as they rationalize all the bad as “a sacrifice worth the goal”.
Whoosh
LOL
Schindler was a Nazi sympathizer. Sure thing, Jan.
No he wasn’t. I never said that. I was just giving the answer to the questions in the meme.
yeah, we had a whole vocabulary we’ve lost. sympathizers, quislings, resistance, there’s a whole lot we’re going to have to remember and/or reinvent unfortunately.
Yeah, historically it’s a bit more complicated. Widerstand gegen den Nationalsozialismus which was an unorganized and very splintered resistance movement existed. There’s a lot of reasons for why they couldn’t quite make the impact they wanted, besides being splintered, but that’s probably the largest one.
Besides that though, the Germans did attempt to cleanse their image after the world war with the Wehrmacht myth. The myth essentially states that the regular army had no knowledge of the acts committed by the SS, that the average German solider was bravely fighting for their country under false pretenses. Obviously it’s not true, but it seems to have been rather effective unfortunately.
No, the meme only covered the people were Nazis but we’re confused about.
People who faught against the Nazis regime clearly were on Nazis. That’s not a nuance.
They should have acted more forcefully before it became totalitarian. For those who came of age into it I can agree with you but it was a small portion of the population.
The Nazis pulled a project 1932 immediately on taking power and absolutely obliterated every possible opposition within months of taking power through a wide variety of tactics. The gap between the Reichstag fire and utter totalitarianism was very, very short and in an era where information spread far more slowly.
They never won more than 37% of the popular vote (though it almost certainly would have been higher had there been elections later on and before the war, we just can’t know the exact amount as there weren’t any).
Well people looked at that and said, you know what, that’s what we need here.
Or alternatively our other leaders saw that being planned and said, you know what people would like instead? The Status Quo! Let’s run as the establishment as the only option other than Nazis.
History repeats itself.
Right. But what about before they were in power? It’s not as if Hitler was some unknown. People knew or should have known what would happen.
I feel like that’s an argument you could make collectively but not individually
Well, some people did and no one is calling those people Nazis. But the people who said eh, I don’t need to do anything about this, I think it’s fair to criticize them. Yes, their resistance was best enacted collectively but they needed to make an individual choice to engage in collective resistance. Most did not make this difficult choice.
Sure but I thought we were specifically talking about saboteurs, those working to undermining it from within.
Well I guess better late than never but what I’m saying is that if enough of those people had acted openly sooner they never would have needed to be secret saboteurs.
They are referred to as “the Good Germans,” the groups that were not nazis and would’ve been expected to stand up in opposition but went along to get along.
A lot of parallels to the US right now, as OP correctly points out. Millions of Americans supported fascism because they wanted eggs to be cheaper.
Well half of them doesn’t know what they support, many literally think they are opposing nazis by voting in nazis.
The other half think they are fighting nazis pushing for the '“safe” alternative to the nazis, the unpopular aristocrats running as the status quo against nazis running as a reform party in a time of anger and upheaval at the plutocratic rot evident to all.
Very few knew they were supporting nazis, although it’s a percentage, several percent, and that includes almost all of their influencers and leaders. Bannon, congress, prosecutors, judges, the executive branch, state house officials.
Those several percent that knew what they were supporting, they didn’t do it because of eggs, they did it because they think they will benefit, and apparently think they will never be thrown out of the club. That they will benefit, itself showing a lack of understanding on how this would play out.
All true, but they should have known. Politics was never meant to be a spectator sport. It requires work, even as an ordinary citizen. Especially as an ordinary citizen.
They literally imprisoned Hitler.
But okay.
What happened next?
Putting him in prison didnt stop him. It clearly was not enough.
I just have difficulty taking this particular viewpoint seriously.
There are books about the two dozen assassination attempts against Hitler, some by ordinary people and some by the Nazis themselves. There are thousands of books about various pockets of resistance. Innumerable films.
To say ‘they didn’t try hard enough’ is, to me, just nonsense.
Yeah there was plenty of resistance from various quarters it just got smashed quickly and wasn’t coordinated enough. Born again Christians were vehemently opposed to the regime for example and suffered harshly for it. Obviously all the lefties etc. too.
On the flip side the Nazis did win over a significant percentage of the population through the late 1930s because of how well the economy was doing, it just never went to a plebiscite so we’ll never know the exact numbers.
They were hard against leftists, unionists, socialists, communists, and the like from the start, and that’s why the industrialists liked them in the first place, and why the west allowed them to fester, because the rich were afraid of the communists, and more afraid of a little reform in general, than putting a single person in absolute power indefinitely.
It really does boggle the mind after you realize this is a dynamic that happens over and over, just as Rome had the same thing a generation before Caesar around the 1st century BC when Sulla came to power on the tail end of Marius’ many consolships. They were afraid of the populares, and reform, and gave dictator powers to sulla that declared himself dictator for life and went on a proscription rampage after violently taking the city, putting up lists of men to kill every day, that soon included his allies, he took the assets of the proscribed and taking his rich allies assets was the end in itself after too long.
But time and again, fear of moderate reform on the “left” leads to supporting an all powerful ruler that carries far more danger to the rich and poor alike.
I haven’t heard of 2 dozen assassination attempts, and I suspect that is wildly revised upwards by people seeking to make them look better.
There was the one attempt at the meeting, the bomb under the table, that Rommel was involved in. That’s the only one I can recall.
I’m talking about citizens, not the government.
a nazi is a nazi until forever. bones in the ground? still a fucking nazi worth only to be pissed on.
tried to help get folks out but wore the uniform? still a fucking nazi. even Schindler.
the only GOOD people were the ones who refused outright and may have died trying to destroy the regime.
nazism is a one way fucking street. it has to be. because otherwise in our current era we’ll have, in 30 years, a lot of the same horseshit “i tried but learned too late” rhetoric.
nobody can claim to have learned too late.
Thank you for your comment. I hope you have a nice Saturday.