It’s coming from the same cohort of people who lynched black men for looking the wrong way at a white woman. There’s no unforgivable deed to them, only in groups and out groups.
Conservative morality is built on the principle that there are good people and bad people. Everything the good people do is good; everything the bad people do is bad. And it’s not just rhetoric, they actually see the world this way.
It’s why they can be outraged about a tan suit, but not give a shit about hosting a closed-door meeting with known Russian spies. Wearing a tan suit was done by a bad person, so it’s bad. Meeting with Russian spies was done by a good person, so it’s good.
Their morality is defined not by their actions, not by the consequences of their actions, nor even the intention of their actions – it’s defined by identity. If you’re part of the ‘good people’ group, you can do no wrong, and even if you do terrible things, it was probably for the benefit of the good people group, so you’re forgiven. If you’re part of the ‘bad people’ group, nothing you do is ever good enough, and even the slightest deviation from any norm will be treated as an act of pure evil, and if you ever do anything that seems good, it must be a trick, nothing but false pretenses.
It’s deeply intertwined with religion, where they first learn such morality: everything God does is good because (by definition) God is good. ‘Good’ is defined in relation to godliness. Everything Satan does is bad because (by definition) Satan is evil. If something good happened to you, God did it. If something bad happened to you, Satan did it. When that forms the basis of your morality, it begins to extend into in-groups and out-groups, and that’s where you get mainstream conservative morality from.
If you trust the Americans justice system to keep incarcerating those judges guilty, then why don’t you trust their system to judge appropriately for those that SA people? I get the feeling from this comment that a very large part of it is just plain misogyny. It is a fact that women already suffer harsher prison terms for comparable crimes to men. Even with the inappropriate harsh terms minorites serve. It’s clear from studies on this subject and all your comments do it discourage all genders from reporting. The American justice system seems fine with their jailing of other innocent’s, just to “make sure ppl feel safe”. It’s broken all over the place, people are suffering, I don’t have a solution. I do encourage speaking up! The Constitution and Bill of Rights ensure the option of speaking publicly about problems to attempt to solve them. Be a part of the solution, stop preventing discussion of the issues!
Well that’d be a different context entirely. The premise here was that they had, but it would be unfair to make them face the consequences of their actions.
Yeah, but what I’m pointing out is that almost never is clear if they actually SA’d or not. My problem with this kinda posts, thus, is that they’re oversimplifying a really complex problem by creating a manichean vision of reality where man = always abusers and woman = always victims, but false allegations do exist so it’s more like a grayscale full of nuances.
Yes but that “grayscale and nuance” is also what stops people from reporting stuff that actually was SA. A fair judicial process is what solves this. Raise the claims if the are true, that is what justice is for, but know that if you raise false claims you are also entering yourself into that justice system. Malicious acts against people and groups should be punished, and victims should be able to seek help.
Yeah, I’m not saying is not like that. The problem is that forgetting that actually the world is that grayscale, is a double-edged sword, as it will polarize and/or cause extremism or maximalism from one side, or another, or both.
I totally agree that sexual abusers are scum and should be tortured until die, but what I don’t see as fair is that the (even if really few) victims of FA have to pay for the crimes of other people they don’t represent.
I often feel depressed thinking about this and the fact that there’s not easy way out of this septic pit, and that things seem to be worse every fucking second. I hate this world.
I think the problem here is that you’re addressing an entirely different question.
The question of if someone should report someone who raped them is entirely separate from the potential chance for false allegations.
If someone is raped, they should report it. If someone isn’t raped but wants to make a false allegation, real cases of rape being reported won’t change that person’s decision to file a fake claim.
The entire point here is just “if you are raped, you should report it, even if that could ruin the rapist’s life in some way, because they raped you, so they deserve consequences”. It doesn’t make a judgement call on how we can combat false allegations.
When we talk about sexual violence, the focus too often falls on what survivors did, where they were, or whether they reported. But rape happens because someone chooses to violate another person’s consent.
I hope courts were efficient. They’re not, unfortunately. Both victims of SA and the (even if few) victims of FA live hell in earth there. It’s depressing.
That’s why I say it’s depressing. I don’t see a clear exit to this mess.
In any case, just because I (for now) can’t name a better alternative doesn’t mean that the current option is good or desirable, nor that a better alternative doesn’t exist. Your making a TINA and a false dilemma fallacy.
Right but I mean there really isn’t a huge issue with false accusations of any other crime, sonindont see why anyone cares so desperately about these false accusations.
If you did the crime then fuck you, if you didn’t then I feel for you and I’m sure it’s going to be a hellish time, but going somewhere you are innocent until proven guilty is your best possible place to be as an innocent person accused of a crime
I have such an issue because I lived a false allegation, and not, is not the same as being falsely accused of theft or name any other minor crime. That shit hits different, as if you were falsely accused of killing someone.
CW: SA
I’ve suffered SA two times, too, one of them being a children, so I’m not speaking from the ignorance, and that’s why I’m so vindictive towards actual rapists, as others of my comments in this thread reveal.
I mean there really isn’t a huge issue with false accusations of any other crime, sonindont see why anyone cares so desperately about these false accusations.
It’s literally just a way to discredit rape victims and defend rapists.
Well, your own sources say the opposite, so you are contradicting yourself, or perhaps you didn’t actually read your own sources, but instead sent whatever you thought supported your biases.
Methodologically rigorous research finds 2-8%
In contrast, when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the
percentage of false reports begin to converge around 2-8%.
• For example, in a multi-site study of 8 U.S. communities involved in the “Making
a Difference” (or “MAD”) Project, data were collected by law enforcement
agencies for all sexual assault reports received in an 18-24 month period. Of the
2,059 cases that were included in the study, 140 (7%) were classified as false.
This is particularly noteworthy because a number of measures were taken to
protect the reliability and validity of the research. First, all participating law
enforcement agencies were provided training and technical assistance in an
ongoing way to ensure that they were applying consistent definitions for a false
report. In addition, a random sample of cases was checked for data entry errors.
They are inextricably entwined. When people only consider a certain type of rape “real rape”, it impacts which cases are investigated and prosecuted and what is considered a false claim.
Yes they are intertwined, but still there’s an important difference and I think it’s useful to be clear. But apparently we can’t talk about it here or messages get deleted. Oh well, enforce the hive mind at all costs, I guess.
You’re mixing two concepts here. 1) The inaccuracy of stereotypical rape definition, and 2) The existence of false accusations.
Then why didn’t you admit they were intertwined with your initial comment? You didn’t because you falsely asserted that they are two different concepts.
Some false accusations are labeled as such because of people’s perception of what entails rape.
They are distinct things that are interrelated. Like the pressure and temperature of a gas. Distinct things to measure and understand, yet one tends to affect the other unless you’re very careful. In the topic of this thread, it’s very important to make the distinction: an accusation is not a false just because it doesn’t follow the stereotypical definition. So we need to be clear when we’re talking about false accusations, ie if we’re not talking about incorrect definitions - but real malicious or erroneous false accusations. And that’s an important facet of this discussion because although it’s quite small and similar to other crime accusations; this particular type of false accusation is very hard to defend oneself against and it can ruin lives. And even more importantly, can make it harder for real victims, especially when you add on the problem where different people have different definitions of the crime.
No the fuck you won’t. They ruined it with their choices and actions. He’ll face consequences for what he did, not for what someone else said.
It’s coming from the same cohort of people who lynched black men for looking the wrong way at a white woman. There’s no unforgivable deed to them, only in groups and out groups.
Conservative morality is built on the principle that there are good people and bad people. Everything the good people do is good; everything the bad people do is bad. And it’s not just rhetoric, they actually see the world this way.
It’s why they can be outraged about a tan suit, but not give a shit about hosting a closed-door meeting with known Russian spies. Wearing a tan suit was done by a bad person, so it’s bad. Meeting with Russian spies was done by a good person, so it’s good.
Their morality is defined not by their actions, not by the consequences of their actions, nor even the intention of their actions – it’s defined by identity. If you’re part of the ‘good people’ group, you can do no wrong, and even if you do terrible things, it was probably for the benefit of the good people group, so you’re forgiven. If you’re part of the ‘bad people’ group, nothing you do is ever good enough, and even the slightest deviation from any norm will be treated as an act of pure evil, and if you ever do anything that seems good, it must be a trick, nothing but false pretenses.
It’s deeply intertwined with religion, where they first learn such morality: everything God does is good because (by definition) God is good. ‘Good’ is defined in relation to godliness. Everything Satan does is bad because (by definition) Satan is evil. If something good happened to you, God did it. If something bad happened to you, Satan did it. When that forms the basis of your morality, it begins to extend into in-groups and out-groups, and that’s where you get mainstream conservative morality from.
I was gonna write a reply to this, but I felt it was more appropriate as a top comment, so I’m gonna paste the link here.
And what if they didn’t actually SA’d and it is a false claim?
If you trust the Americans justice system to keep incarcerating those judges guilty, then why don’t you trust their system to judge appropriately for those that SA people? I get the feeling from this comment that a very large part of it is just plain misogyny. It is a fact that women already suffer harsher prison terms for comparable crimes to men. Even with the inappropriate harsh terms minorites serve. It’s clear from studies on this subject and all your comments do it discourage all genders from reporting. The American justice system seems fine with their jailing of other innocent’s, just to “make sure ppl feel safe”. It’s broken all over the place, people are suffering, I don’t have a solution. I do encourage speaking up! The Constitution and Bill of Rights ensure the option of speaking publicly about problems to attempt to solve them. Be a part of the solution, stop preventing discussion of the issues!
Well that’d be a different context entirely. The premise here was that they had, but it would be unfair to make them face the consequences of their actions.
Yeah, but what I’m pointing out is that almost never is clear if they actually SA’d or not. My problem with this kinda posts, thus, is that they’re oversimplifying a really complex problem by creating a manichean vision of reality where man = always abusers and woman = always victims, but false allegations do exist so it’s more like a grayscale full of nuances.
Yes but that “grayscale and nuance” is also what stops people from reporting stuff that actually was SA. A fair judicial process is what solves this. Raise the claims if the are true, that is what justice is for, but know that if you raise false claims you are also entering yourself into that justice system. Malicious acts against people and groups should be punished, and victims should be able to seek help.
Yeah, I’m not saying is not like that. The problem is that forgetting that actually the world is that grayscale, is a double-edged sword, as it will polarize and/or cause extremism or maximalism from one side, or another, or both.
I totally agree that sexual abusers are scum and should be tortured until die, but what I don’t see as fair is that the (even if really few) victims of FA have to pay for the crimes of other people they don’t represent.
I often feel depressed thinking about this and the fact that there’s not easy way out of this septic pit, and that things seem to be worse every fucking second. I hate this world.
I think the problem here is that you’re addressing an entirely different question.
The question of if someone should report someone who raped them is entirely separate from the potential chance for false allegations.
If someone is raped, they should report it. If someone isn’t raped but wants to make a false allegation, real cases of rape being reported won’t change that person’s decision to file a fake claim.
The entire point here is just “if you are raped, you should report it, even if that could ruin the rapist’s life in some way, because they raped you, so they deserve consequences”. It doesn’t make a judgement call on how we can combat false allegations.
Removed by mod
It is overwhelmingly men that rape other men, women, and children.
The more important stat that only 8% of rape and sexual assault cases see a courtroom I have stated elsewhere in this thread.
False rates of sexual assault happen at the same rate of false reporting of any other crime, between 2-5%.
I can pull sources for each and every one of these statistics.
Actually, the most reliable source goes from 2-8%
It’s still small, but it should be zero just as any other crime. That’s at least my Utopia.
It’s the same rates as any other crime. There are false reports for other crime. Stop lying.
Then the courts will sort it out
I hope courts were efficient. They’re not, unfortunately. Both victims of SA and the (even if few) victims of FA live hell in earth there. It’s depressing.
Ok but name a better alternative.
That’s why I say it’s depressing. I don’t see a clear exit to this mess.
In any case, just because I (for now) can’t name a better alternative doesn’t mean that the current option is good or desirable, nor that a better alternative doesn’t exist. Your making a TINA and a false dilemma fallacy.
Right but I mean there really isn’t a huge issue with false accusations of any other crime, sonindont see why anyone cares so desperately about these false accusations.
If you did the crime then fuck you, if you didn’t then I feel for you and I’m sure it’s going to be a hellish time, but going somewhere you are innocent until proven guilty is your best possible place to be as an innocent person accused of a crime
I have such an issue because I lived a false allegation, and not, is not the same as being falsely accused of theft or name any other minor crime. That shit hits different, as if you were falsely accused of killing someone.
CW: SA
I’ve suffered SA two times, too, one of them being a children, so I’m not speaking from the ignorance, and that’s why I’m so vindictive towards actual rapists, as others of my comments in this thread reveal.
It’s literally just a way to discredit rape victims and defend rapists.
Oh, I know. Thank you though.
False reports of rape and sexual assault fall in line with false reporting of other crimes. Between 2-5%.
Again, one of the most important challenges for successfully investigating and prosecuting cases of non-stranger sexual assault is the idea that many – or even most – reports are false. As long as this belief is accepted by law enforcement professionals, prosecutors, jurors, and others, our efforts to improve the criminal justice response to sexual assault will have only limited impact. Only those cases that look like our societal stereotype of “real rape” will be successfully investigated and prosecuted.
Well, your own sources say the opposite, so you are contradicting yourself, or perhaps you didn’t actually read your own sources, but instead sent whatever you thought supported your biases.
Removed by mod
They are inextricably entwined. When people only consider a certain type of rape “real rape”, it impacts which cases are investigated and prosecuted and what is considered a false claim.
Yes they are intertwined, but still there’s an important difference and I think it’s useful to be clear. But apparently we can’t talk about it here or messages get deleted. Oh well, enforce the hive mind at all costs, I guess.
Then why didn’t you admit they were intertwined with your initial comment? You didn’t because you falsely asserted that they are two different concepts.
Some false accusations are labeled as such because of people’s perception of what entails rape.
They are distinct things that are interrelated. Like the pressure and temperature of a gas. Distinct things to measure and understand, yet one tends to affect the other unless you’re very careful. In the topic of this thread, it’s very important to make the distinction: an accusation is not a false just because it doesn’t follow the stereotypical definition. So we need to be clear when we’re talking about false accusations, ie if we’re not talking about incorrect definitions - but real malicious or erroneous false accusations. And that’s an important facet of this discussion because although it’s quite small and similar to other crime accusations; this particular type of false accusation is very hard to defend oneself against and it can ruin lives. And even more importantly, can make it harder for real victims, especially when you add on the problem where different people have different definitions of the crime.
Then… don’t report him…