It’s really hard for me to wrap my head around why it’s so easy for certain extremely online guys to hate women so much and so easily.
I encounter a little bit less of it on the fediverse but it’s not immune either. Yesterday on lemmy someone posted something making fun of women who get plastic surgery, and pointing out that they were being kinda misogynist* got a lot of replies about how men are the real oppressed class and you can never make jokes about women and other incel bullshit. No where is immune.
You have a guy that has undesirable personality traits, instead of normal community peer pressure to correct his behaviour, he finds 100s or 1000s of other douchbags on line to support his victimhood of not finding a date.
I know some Arab girls who said to me that the Middle East has plenty of women and girl haters, but one thing they noticed was that when Western guys hate women, they REALLY hate women to extents that even major misogynists in the Middle East won’t touch.
I find that hard to believe. You mean a place where women have no rights can be beat with no penalties if they are raped it is their fault.
I find that really easy to believe actually. The level of vitriol makes a lot of sense in places where women have some power. Why bother where they are powerless?
It’s really hard for me to wrap my head around why it’s so easy for certain extremely online guys to hate women so much and so easily
same reasons people hate on immigrants etc
easy to blame others for your own inadequacies. Many years ago I spent a little time in /r/mgtow and was eventually banned. I’d sub’d in good faith and naively assumeed it was about betterment, and while their was a little of that, mostly jist blaming women.
when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
The gateway to hate is contempt, and the gateway to contempt is grievance, and grievance comes from externalizing blame for things not going the way you want and not having the character to deal with that properly.
The gateway to hate is contempt, and the gateway to contempt is grievance, and grievance comes from externalizing blame for things not going the way you want and not having the character to deal with that properly.
Very well said.
The incel mentality is, at its core, a victim mentality.
I like that explanation a lot, thank you.
Supply and demand in dating social spaces, virtual or in person.
In person non-dating social interactions have been steadily declining.
When all the red pill shit first started coming out it was ironically more about self-improvement followed by pick up artist tacticts once you got your shit together.
Still misogynistic at the time and it just continues to get worse. Rather than put in the work to improve themselves, they’d rather go all handmaid’s tale.
Yeah, that’s a thing I still struggle with! Understanding how not being able to date turns them into misogynists. I guess it’s entitlement, but I can’t really relate to that in this case, so it’s hard to understand.
It stems from a victim mentality, envy, and ego.
When they’re chronically online and immersed in social media and entertainment media, they’re surrounded by portrayals of happy couples, love, and romance. Eventually, it skews their perception into thinking that they’re the only ones who are missing out. They start to feel like life is unfair to them, with love and sex being out of their reach.
That grows into envy and hatred towards men who have experienced it, and especially those who have above-average success with their romantic lives. They compare themselves to those men, convincing themselves that the reason other people are more successful is because of superficial traits like conventional attractiveness or money.
While all that happens, they refuse to consider that their lack of success could be due to their own behaviors or negative attitudes. It’s always something else that is stopping them from experiencing love; their ego is protecting themselves from hurt, avoiding the necessary but painful introspection that would snap them out of it.
It culminates in the belief that both women and other men are the reason for their nonexistent love life. They become openly mysognistic, but they also think poorly about attractive men—they just don’t show it outside of incel communities because they’re afraid to get their ass beat.
And all of that was before this red pill shit. The red pill movement exacerbated it by catching them at various stages throughout their incelification process, affirming their beliefs, and then hooking them in further so shitbags like Andrew Tate can profit off of them.
I wonder if part of the issue is that we raise kids with a lot of platitudes like “don’t rush it, you’ll find someone” when the truth is not everyone does find someone and you’re not promised a life partner
Don’t get discouraged, engagement is the only weapon.
Thanks, that’s a good reminder <3
Suggesting Jordan Peterson as someone who “earnestly tried to respond to the question”.
Jordan “Benzobus” Peterson who undermined mental healthcare (even as a formerly licensed professional!) to tell young disaffected alienated men to “clean their rooms” and then who went on to espouse hack carnivore eating habits and then require benzodiazepine detox (we don’t shame people for that but we do shame them for…) going to Russia to receive it (because naturally no one in Canada ever has been treated for this in the entire history of Canadian medicine) and then fleeing to the US because Canada is “too woke” - yeah fuck that asshole and stay in Arizona.
A lot of incel culture stems from online influence, feelings of alienation, and resentment towards women since many of them have learned about sexuality through pornography and expect that women in real life will acquiesce to that - this exposure coupled with manosphere “influencers” telling them that they need to “take back control over women” means many of them not only harbour hatred towards women for perceived or real previous rejection but now think “give me the p now bish I’m a man” is somehow even vaguely normal. They have built communities online around this and here we are.
I won’t even touch the layer of low self-esteem theatre that is the “chad” vs “soy boy” nonsense and mewing, chin and face architecture, and other manifestations of body dysmorphia that they blame for their lack of connection to women - funny that they never consider their personality or views on equality but hey - I hope the Therapy Fairy visits all of them and brings a psych to give them the good drugs to move past this nonsense.
Peterson got hooked on benzos cuz his wife was dying and he couldn’t cope. I don’t hold that against him. And it is ironic that Peterson himself fell down the alt-right pipeline after claiming to be so well versed in studying authoritarian regimes.
For a loneliness epidemic that stems partly from “feelings of alienation” I’m sure calling them names and belittling them won’t drive them further down that road.
I also included a disclaimer around the addiction piece but no, sorry - otherwise he and his ideologies can go get fucked. I play a small violin for someone who thinks their chin is a factor in their ability to attract a mate. Also w.r.t Peterson he has abandoned Canada and decided we don’t even have the skills necessary to detox him from his addiction (regardless of its provenance) much less is Canada so disastrous that Arizona is a good place to decamp.
The manosphere is toxic garbage and the first step to treatment is stepping away from the likes of Rogan, Peterson, and the even more insane people who feed off of them. Learn to love and respect women - learn to love and respect yourself. More importantly he speaks of the evils of Marxism and such but then openly embraces grift-based Christianity and the likes of right-wing American politicians.
Seriously? No. Bye Felicia as we say in academic erudite circles when confronted with such nonsense.
Then keep making the problem you’re complaining about worse.
Highly don’t recommend peterson, that grifter is one whole sack of shit.
Shortly before he launched his terror attack, the killer disseminated a manifesto to media. The essay is borderline unreadable: A hodgepodge of discordant economic and social politics, strung together by an intense hatred of women.
Sigh. Sounds like a worrying number of lemmy users.
The solution to this loneliness epidemic and all the downstream dangers that flow from it, is painfully simple: We need to break this internet addiction and get disaffected young men into physical, shared spaces again. The difficult part, the thing we haven’t yet figured out, is how we do that.
Unfortunately third spaces do not coexist well with any modern society, especially capitalism, and are quick becoming extinct. Especially post covid, making friends for anyone is extremely difficult - In a point against the incel philosophy, I’m a cute goth girl with big tits and I struggle to meet any new friends. It’s just shockingly isolating to participate in society these days.
Civilian Conservation Corps. FDR era plan to hire young men and build infrastructure.
Invest money in rebuilding powerlines, roads, and bridges. Give people well paying blue collar jobs. Teach teamwork and mutual responsibility
The point about third spaces feels very apt. The absence of these in the modern world has to be connected to this social isolation epidemic we all seem to be experiencing. They are the exact opposite of social media, imagine if we redirected our resources?
God, I wish. At this point I’d settle for them not killing off libraries, but…
This timeline: best we can do it convert libraries and parks into data centers :'(
Its really tough if you’re an attractive girl and can’t get any friends. I am a guy but I haven’t dated in more than a decade. Also I am a huge voluntary loner. Not an incel or a freak, but it would still feel strange for me if and when I go out on a date, and while I am not a virgin (far from it) if I get it on with another girl after all this time I might as well be.
I’ll admit it’s not hard for me to get a date since, well, I’m the product dating apps are selling. But it’s genuinely hard to meet like… friend friends. Lots of guys who wanna bang and thats fine, but none that I’d wanna play D&D or HD2 with. And no women, even on the “meet platonic friends” apps they just serve men. Honestly, its getting pretty disgusting how they commodify their userbase in a way that reinforces the exact kind of social isolation that fuels the problems with society that spawns incel culture, all to extract “premium memberships” with the promise of oneday going on dates with women who are never even given an opportunity to know they exist.
… I’m ranting but I genuinely just hate this shit.
That’s fine. For me I would want to meet girls for a relationship. I really am not looking for quickies and the times when I said I was I was probably lying to myself in times past.
But one thing for me is I refuse to use dating apps or online dating. I did have bad experiences with them ever since I first used them many years ago. I am also someone who is described as terminally online spend most of my time in front of a computer. I am sick of it, I am sick of ‘long distance’ and ‘remote’ relationships. I want to meet people face-to-face. It is possible, always hard I know, but I really would rather meet someone directly than indirectly.
Edit: And it sucks that you can’t even meet platonic female friends online. That is some bullshit right there.
I’m a hermit who lives in an off grid rural property behind a couple locked gates but I still manage to meet a half dozen new people every week.
Yeah, you know, that actually tracks…
I’ve never actually tracked a new person I’ve met but that might be fun now that you mention it.
Sharks don’t seem to mind the radio tags, and they’re way more ill-tempered than a UPS guy. I’m sure it’ll be fine.
This is brilliant bait, love it
… What about it is bait?
Everything? From calling out Lemmy users to get a reaction, to claiming attractiveness to get even more engagement… Sadly, this thread declined in popularity too quickly for it to be effective.
This thread played out like one of those meetings about women’s issues where they only have male speakers.
I’ll try to add a little to the conversation, though. The article talks about how the online spaces were all deep dark corners of the internet. At least part of that is because places like reddit got rid of those subreddits.
Sadly, this thread declined in popularity too quickly for it to be effective.
But… there was plenty of very nice discussion about the subject?
Gift link… because: https://www.thestar.com/gift-redeem?t=63cb88b8-903a-45eb-a9cc-bfd70310f87b
(I pay to support the last Canadian-owned major media concern, Torstar)
I find it interesting that in response to a murder spree here we’re already looking at how the system failed. In the US they’d be looking for who to pin the blame on. And thoughts and prayers.
Thank you
We still need to find fucking something. I hear tons of calls for gun control but no matter how many rammings or shootings or stabbings or other acts of violence do I hear an attempt at drawing young men (and men in general) away from this shit.
It needs a cultural fix. Better role models, better life choices, and ending glorification of this shit.
But you would be amazed at how many support only gun laws in response and nothing else. Expensive and ineffective AND pulling resources out of other police duties and social services. This is a massive pet peeve of mine.
it’s pretty clear from the data that laws restricting firearm access reduce gun violence.
No. We had this debate before. Look up my comment history. I won’t write again.
hah, thanks for the invite to study your works, but yeah, nah
He was using an SKS with stripper clips and no magazine. It has a wooden stock and was probably manufactured in the 70s. They were used in Korea and Vietnam. Patrol cops don’t have armor that stops 7.62 either. Gun control was not going to stop this one.
No light vest can stop ANY centerfire rifle round. The 7.62x39mm is an intermediate round. If you got a Mauser 98 from WW1 and fired 1930s civilian 7.92x57mm (the German Mauser round) it would zip through both sides of the vest and kill anyone behind the cop, too
Meh, honestly, while I agree there ought to be more offline options for guys, blaming the internet for isolation is a bit simplistic. It’s not simply just “being online” that causes this sort of shit.
Earlier internet days, it was common for guys who were on the outskirts of social norms to find support and inclusivity in online activities. You’d pick a game, go online, and have the same general set of gamers you played with over a long period of time – you’d get familiar, start guilds, have real-life meetups and so on. Even FPS games, it was super common that you’d hit up a specific designated server that was close to you for a lower ping, and the same people from the same general geographic region would meetup there regularly. You got to know one another, interact socially, and have that sort of ecosystem where you could voice ideas, even questionable ones, and you’d get checked by other sane/regular people. Incel type stuff was practically nowhere on the radar.
Social media is a different story though, and likewise how the internet in general has evolved since its early days. Social media basically turns people into faceless mobs – some ‘influencer’ pushes out a racey photo and gets 1m followers thirsty, someone posts a lusty comment, and there’s no checking, just piling on, because no one will remember each other later, no one will have to actually interact with one another. The influencers will even post more racey photos, because all that matters is engagement/clicks, not quality of discussion. You get games like WoW revamping their systems, with the aim to reduce wait times on group content, by making it so that you get randomly paired with a bunch of faceless people you’ll likely never interact with again after that night - instead of a massively multiplayer online social experience, it’s a game with a lot of faceless players you can treat like disposable NPCs. FPS games are similar, with little to no persistence amongst the actual player communities. Servers are often run by companies, that have rules/auto-censures that prohibit open conversation/dialogue – say the wrong thing in a chat, and you’re kicked.
Even more, we endorse/support communities that provide lgbtq+ safe spaces, or women’s safe spaces, where people can generally be openly misandrist, without repercussions because it’s a safe space, and the target of their vitriol are men – but male safe spaces don’t have the same protections, you still face banning if you question the broader progressive narratives.
Saying solutions are hard to find, is galling to me, when the system has been progressively designed to break apart the sorts of supports guys need. Third-spaces are needed, I agree – physical ones are great, but virtual ones also previously helped, until we engineered them to push guys into isolation.
But the incels are the most intense manifestation of a societywide problem: How do we get lonely young men to log off and rejoin society? How do we convince these men that they are not, as the killer believed, “barred from actualizing your potential?”
…
The solution to this loneliness epidemic and all the downstream dangers that flow from it, is painfully simple: We need to break this internet addiction and get disaffected young men into physical, shared spaces again. The difficult part, the thing we haven’t yet figured out, is how we do that.
No one wants to gamble on a $17 (not including tax or tip) cocktail that a girl might want to talk
I would gamble on a $3, hell even a $5 cocktail if everything else was so relatively affordable. The problem is even fast food corps are speculative RE investors now, and they need you to pay $7 for a shitty combo deal to finance their gambling habits.
I think the root of it is really: existing outside of home is just too expensive.
Home also too expensive…
Firstly, the star and mirror are both crap papers.
The path to solving the incel issue lies in understanding it arose as a counter-culture.
Easy. Just revamp society to provide freedom to all. Then these guys can buy poontang instead of guns.
Never going to happen for the majority. Need them to buy tokens for their AI girlfriend to funnel more money to the ultra wealthy.
I doubt it. Incels aren’t rolling in dough, they have to save up for their sprees. And then, the choice is whether your $1000 will buy you one pretty good evening with a pretty good girl or a cheapo hipoint rifle, which will last the rest of your life…
Yeah but the ‘market’ is fucked up with prices like that right now. It doesnt always have to be.
IDK man, hipoints are about as cheap as you can make a gun right now. They’d have to be literal cardboard or something to get any cheaper.
