So, to be clear, you’re saying that someone who is happy to present as their gender assigned at birth, behave like their gender assigned at birth, who doesn’t feel dysphoria, and is socialised as their gender assigned at birth can be non-binary?
Why would I think that anyone owes me androgyny? I just think that if someone is shown as living a happy life in a specifically binary manner, they aren’t representative of enbies.
Who’s to say what it means to present as or behave like a certain gender? To what extent does one need to conform in order to be considered conforming? Why is anything gendered at all? Does the rejection of gender as a whole not fall under the same umbrella as non-binary?
All interesting questions … my comment you’re replying to was pretty shit, but you’re adding good depth.
I’d say that enby is a catch-all term, and rejecting gender altogether is (or can be/should be) included in that.
Given the context of how people in most western societies grow up, especially those of us who were punished for not following gender norms, it’s pretty easy to come up with a list of things which are considered typical, and where a threshold for being considered definitely of a binary gender would be for their society.
So now you’re assuming I don’t feel dysphoria and just do things outside of my outward gender presentation to deal with it?
I do not identify with being male. Being perceived as male gives me a lot of dysphoria. But crucially with me being built like Bigfoot, going for androgyny makes feel like “Bigfoot in Drag” and makes me feel like I’m calling more attention to the fact that I was assigned male at birth than just continuing with the male presentation. Especially when I don’t know what precisely I want out of transition.
So yes, the thing that helps my dysphoria most is keeping my identity “for me” and the people close to me. Having them treat me like “hey I know you look like a man, but I know you’re not one,” and doing things “for me” that affirm my identity. Also I find it hilarious that you’re telling A FUCKING NONBINARY PERSON that they’re not a good example of being an enby because they’re presenting as their AGAB yet in the same breath basically agreeing that we don’t owe anyone androgyny. Which is it? Am in only valid being AMAB if I’m presenting femme or androgynous? Is masc presentation only allowed for AFAB enbies? Kinda sounds like you’re saying we’re only valid if we present the “right way” for you.
You’re talking about a “female looking character” who is seemingly “presenting as their AGAB” as being nonbinary erasure. I am a real live AMAB person who is presenting as my AGAB, how does what you are saying not apply to me? Or any other nonbinary person who presents close to their AGAB?
By calling it “enby erasure” to have a feminine looking character being implied to be nonbinary you are directly implying that anyone that presents “too far” to one side or the other is not “enby enough” or in other words, invalid. How is that different from saying that we “Owe you androgyny?” Oh we don’t owe you androgyny, but if we present too far to one side or the other we get told we’re not actually nonbinary. How is that different? If you’re going to say that someone presenting too feminine is “enby erasure” how does that not equate to trying to enforce androgyny for enbies to be valid?
I’m betting that wasn’t your intent but I’m trying to get your to see the reality that you constantly doubling down on this is insane. There’s no “right way” to be nonbinary and you can look like literally anyone. Your insistence that just because this person looks very feminine or masculine that they can’t possibly be nonbinary is just plain wrong.
Because I was talking about 2 dimensional characters in a cartoon (which I now understand was not originally drawn to be about enbies, but didn’t realise at the time) … you are a 3 dimensional person with your own thoughts and feelings.
You took my comment regarding erasure, which came from my feelings, and wanted to shame me into silence. So of course I lashed out, because I’m not always emotionally mature.
I feel crushed under the weight of everything in mainstream media being hyper binary, so when I see a meme about enbies that presents people as being androgynous it’s like rain to a desert flower. Seeing a meme talking about gender diversity with two images of idealised hyper binary characters has the opposite effect.
Lesson learned. Next time I see something that upsets me, I’ll be good and not say anything.
What are you even talking about? Nonbinary people are starved for representation in general but most of what we do get is almost exclusively androgynous, almost always implied to be AFAB and often nonhuman. If any enbies are being erased it is the ones that don’t give femme-leaning androgyny, that “woman lite” that’s the only palatable way for media to represent us.
Lesson learned. Next time I see something that upsets me, I’ll be good and not say anything.
Get out of here with this “poor me” BS. You came in here spouting off implying how someone looking “too feminine” was “erasing enbies” as if it was impossible for someone to look like that and be nonbinary and when told that you were wrong by a nonbinary person you continually doubled down on it.
You literally tried asking me like if someone whose presentation aligns with their AGAB can be nonbinary like it was some kind of gotcha! What are we even doing here!?
So, to be clear, you’re saying that someone who is happy to present as their gender assigned at birth, behave like their gender assigned at birth, who doesn’t feel dysphoria, and is socialised as their gender assigned at birth can be non-binary?
And now you’re going to try to play the victim? Yeah okay buddy, you have fun with that.
YES YOU COLOSSAL FUCKING CLOWN! I’m defending the right of enbies to present how they want to fucking present! I don’t care if they look like a damn power lifter, a genderless Fae being, or a goddamned Victoria’s Secret model, the only “requirement” to be nonbinary is to IDENTIFY AS NONBINARY!!
Edit: To elaborate for others who might come later “Female-lite” is a reductive term that means that nonbinary is essentially just “person that I can perceive as woman, but is trying to distance from the baggage of misogyny” while “female heavy” refers to just “presenting too much like a woman” in this case. One is an actual erasure of identity by way of saying oh you’re basically women in all but name, the other is trying to police someone’s gender presentation because it’s not androgynous enough for you.
So, to be clear, you’re saying that someone who is happy to present as their gender assigned at birth, behave like their gender assigned at birth, who doesn’t feel dysphoria, and is socialised as their gender assigned at birth can be non-binary?
Where are you getting all this info from? From the perspective of the comic, ignoring that it’s a meme comic, there’s no way to tell what gender either character was assigned at birth, let alone any of the other details. Either one could’ve been AMAB, and the second one is at least a former cutter based on the scars (the shoulder is a popular location because it doesn’t show when you wear a t-shirt). Was that from dysphoria? Who knows, they didn’t tell us. Edit: just went back and realized those are folds in the sleeve of their shirt, not scars. This image needs more pixels.
From a broader perspective: …yes? To be considered a certain gender you only need to identify as that gender. There are no other requirements. You don’t need to act a certain way, look a certain way, or even have dysphoria. Is a trans woman who’s in the closet not a woman? If they identify as a woman, they’re a woman. If they identify as nonbinary, then they’re nonbinary.
The dysphoria one is also a big one for me, so I’m gonna talk about it specifically just in case it helps someone who happens to read this: you don’t need to have dysphoria in order to be trans. You don’t. If you’re happy as your AGAB but feel like you’d be happier as another gender, then go ahead and transition. Or don’t. Or only go as far as makes you happy. Because at the end of the day, it’s about being comfortable in your own skin.
So many trans people think “well, I didn’t have dysphoria as a kid so I can’t be trans” or some variation of that thought, only to transition and either find out that, yes, they did experience dysphoria and just couldn’t tell because it was their normal everyday experience, or experience the more important gender euphoria after they transition.
So, to be clear, you’re saying that someone who is happy to present as their gender assigned at birth, behave like their gender assigned at birth, who doesn’t feel dysphoria, and is socialised as their gender assigned at birth can be non-binary?
Why would I think that anyone owes me androgyny? I just think that if someone is shown as living a happy life in a specifically binary manner, they aren’t representative of enbies.
Who’s to say what it means to present as or behave like a certain gender? To what extent does one need to conform in order to be considered conforming? Why is anything gendered at all? Does the rejection of gender as a whole not fall under the same umbrella as non-binary?
All interesting questions … my comment you’re replying to was pretty shit, but you’re adding good depth.
I’d say that enby is a catch-all term, and rejecting gender altogether is (or can be/should be) included in that.
Given the context of how people in most western societies grow up, especially those of us who were punished for not following gender norms, it’s pretty easy to come up with a list of things which are considered typical, and where a threshold for being considered definitely of a binary gender would be for their society.
So now you’re assuming I don’t feel dysphoria and just do things outside of my outward gender presentation to deal with it?
I do not identify with being male. Being perceived as male gives me a lot of dysphoria. But crucially with me being built like Bigfoot, going for androgyny makes feel like “Bigfoot in Drag” and makes me feel like I’m calling more attention to the fact that I was assigned male at birth than just continuing with the male presentation. Especially when I don’t know what precisely I want out of transition.
So yes, the thing that helps my dysphoria most is keeping my identity “for me” and the people close to me. Having them treat me like “hey I know you look like a man, but I know you’re not one,” and doing things “for me” that affirm my identity. Also I find it hilarious that you’re telling A FUCKING NONBINARY PERSON that they’re not a good example of being an enby because they’re presenting as their AGAB yet in the same breath basically agreeing that we don’t owe anyone androgyny. Which is it? Am in only valid being AMAB if I’m presenting femme or androgynous? Is masc presentation only allowed for AFAB enbies? Kinda sounds like you’re saying we’re only valid if we present the “right way” for you.
I wasn’t talking about you. Why would I be talking about you?
You’re talking about a “female looking character” who is seemingly “presenting as their AGAB” as being nonbinary erasure. I am a real live AMAB person who is presenting as my AGAB, how does what you are saying not apply to me? Or any other nonbinary person who presents close to their AGAB?
By calling it “enby erasure” to have a feminine looking character being implied to be nonbinary you are directly implying that anyone that presents “too far” to one side or the other is not “enby enough” or in other words, invalid. How is that different from saying that we “Owe you androgyny?” Oh we don’t owe you androgyny, but if we present too far to one side or the other we get told we’re not actually nonbinary. How is that different? If you’re going to say that someone presenting too feminine is “enby erasure” how does that not equate to trying to enforce androgyny for enbies to be valid?
I’m betting that wasn’t your intent but I’m trying to get your to see the reality that you constantly doubling down on this is insane. There’s no “right way” to be nonbinary and you can look like literally anyone. Your insistence that just because this person looks very feminine or masculine that they can’t possibly be nonbinary is just plain wrong.
Because I was talking about 2 dimensional characters in a cartoon (which I now understand was not originally drawn to be about enbies, but didn’t realise at the time) … you are a 3 dimensional person with your own thoughts and feelings.
You took my comment regarding erasure, which came from my feelings, and wanted to shame me into silence. So of course I lashed out, because I’m not always emotionally mature.
I feel crushed under the weight of everything in mainstream media being hyper binary, so when I see a meme about enbies that presents people as being androgynous it’s like rain to a desert flower. Seeing a meme talking about gender diversity with two images of idealised hyper binary characters has the opposite effect.
Lesson learned. Next time I see something that upsets me, I’ll be good and not say anything.
What are you even talking about? Nonbinary people are starved for representation in general but most of what we do get is almost exclusively androgynous, almost always implied to be AFAB and often nonhuman. If any enbies are being erased it is the ones that don’t give femme-leaning androgyny, that “woman lite” that’s the only palatable way for media to represent us.
Get out of here with this “poor me” BS. You came in here spouting off implying how someone looking “too feminine” was “erasing enbies” as if it was impossible for someone to look like that and be nonbinary and when told that you were wrong by a nonbinary person you continually doubled down on it.
You literally tried asking me like if someone whose presentation aligns with their AGAB can be nonbinary like it was some kind of gotcha! What are we even doing here!?
And now you’re going to try to play the victim? Yeah okay buddy, you have fun with that.
So, you’re frustrated with “female-light” but fiercely defend “female-heavy”?
YES YOU COLOSSAL FUCKING CLOWN! I’m defending the right of enbies to present how they want to fucking present! I don’t care if they look like a damn power lifter, a genderless Fae being, or a goddamned Victoria’s Secret model, the only “requirement” to be nonbinary is to IDENTIFY AS NONBINARY!!
Edit: To elaborate for others who might come later “Female-lite” is a reductive term that means that nonbinary is essentially just “person that I can perceive as woman, but is trying to distance from the baggage of misogyny” while “female heavy” refers to just “presenting too much like a woman” in this case. One is an actual erasure of identity by way of saying oh you’re basically women in all but name, the other is trying to police someone’s gender presentation because it’s not androgynous enough for you.
So you’re not defending the rights of “female-light” enbies, just everyone else.
Where are you getting all this info from? From the perspective of the comic, ignoring that it’s a meme comic, there’s no way to tell what gender either character was assigned at birth, let alone any of the other details. Either one could’ve been AMAB, and the second one is at least a former cutter based on the scars (the shoulder is a popular location because it doesn’t show when you wear a t-shirt). Was that from dysphoria? Who knows, they didn’t tell us. Edit: just went back and realized those are folds in the sleeve of their shirt, not scars. This image needs more pixels.
From a broader perspective: …yes? To be considered a certain gender you only need to identify as that gender. There are no other requirements. You don’t need to act a certain way, look a certain way, or even have dysphoria. Is a trans woman who’s in the closet not a woman? If they identify as a woman, they’re a woman. If they identify as nonbinary, then they’re nonbinary.
The dysphoria one is also a big one for me, so I’m gonna talk about it specifically just in case it helps someone who happens to read this: you don’t need to have dysphoria in order to be trans. You don’t. If you’re happy as your AGAB but feel like you’d be happier as another gender, then go ahead and transition. Or don’t. Or only go as far as makes you happy. Because at the end of the day, it’s about being comfortable in your own skin.
So many trans people think “well, I didn’t have dysphoria as a kid so I can’t be trans” or some variation of that thought, only to transition and either find out that, yes, they did experience dysphoria and just couldn’t tell because it was their normal everyday experience, or experience the more important gender euphoria after they transition.
ok, that’s fair - change “gender assigned at birth” to “either traditional binary gender”