Lithium isn’t quite like gold. It is not rare at all. The news isn’t that it is there, the news is that someone has found a place where it is relatively easy to dig, and lots of it.
In only a few years, most batteries will be made without lithium anyway.
In only a few years, most batteries will be made without lithium anyway.
Citation needed.
Sodium-ion and maaaaybe iron are promising, with sodium-ion making the most headway.
https://batterycouncil.org/battery-facts-and-applications/about-sodium-batteries/
Not quite widely commercially available yet, but I wouldn’t invest heavily in lithium is it was me.
Ehh… Lithium batteries are going to be around for quite a while even if sodium ion batteries take off. It’s just more energy dense than sodium ion, so it’s always going to be better for things like portable electronics.
Sodium ion might take over the market for heavier batteries like stationary power banks.
Consult a periodic table. Lithium will always out perform sodium. Sodium batteries only exist because lithium costs more, but these large deposits are being found worldwide every few months and lithium will drop in price as a commodity. At some point, recycling will require much less new lithium to be mined.
Sodium is better in the more important ways than lithium.
Either state WTF you are talking about or find a better way to waste people’s time.
Wood is cheaper than steel. Which apparently is the most important way to be better in. But I wouldn’t build a skyscraper out of it.
Saying that energy density is not important in energy storage technology is as stupid as saying that material strength is not important in building materials.
Yes you may quote me, if you really need it.
Or leave it. For reasonable people, it is obvious anyway.
I already quoted you. I don’t need your permission to do it.
If you’re not gonna even try to defend your position you’re just spreading misinformation.
Have you not been paying attention to the development of sodium batteries? They are already surpassing LithIon batteries in energy density and cost.
Cost, yes, energy density, very much no.
So good for grid storage, bad for vehicles?
Yes. Chinese manufacturers are using sodium batteries in some low-range cheap city-cars, too. But fundamentally there is less energy storage in a charged sodium atom than a charged lithium atom so it seems sodium batteries must always be bigger and heavier than equivalent-capacity lithium batteries.
Not exactly, they work better in cold temps for northern countries.
Would be hilarious if China figured out efficient electrolysis and powered all their stuff using hydrogen but our huge and inefficient data centers needed all of our fresh water.
Hilarious. 😒
if China figured out efficient electrolysis and powered all their stuff using hydrogen
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_26_1004
North sea windmills will be generating hydrogen from wind electricity.
Huh… I thought lithium was a liquid metal, like mercury. 🤔
Lithium hexafluorophosphate is the salt used, white powder at room temp.
It is not, but it is very soluble, so can be found in water.
No… It’s a soft metal, but its melting point is 180.50 °C (Mercury’s is −38.8290 °C)
Sounds like america could use some freedom
Bring us some democracy while you’re at it.
Sounds like it’s time to bring the U.S some Freedom! 😎🪖🕊️
Trump: “So the oil is under the lithium? How does this work?”
It’s more like his cronies will claim it’s under federal jurisdiction then sell all rights to one of trump’s sons for a button.
Oh good, more earth to pillage.
Brighter note, to date is still the best way to make batteries, we need it to build storage capabilities for a grid based on renewable energy.
Unfortunately we’ll probably end up using it for disposable tapes instead
Why is it never in MY yard???
You own the mineral rights of your backyard?
Simple trick to claim the mineral rights of your own backyard. You just need to flip own yard and house upside down! Then the minerals are not under your yard but above it! Checkmate lawyers.
Of course, you’ll also need to sign a writ of mineralis claimies with your signature written in a patriotic crossword. Then include a stamp of George Washington where you have drew him a sensible toupee. Make sure to use red ink or the blood of goblin to draw the toupee, goblin preferred.
I’d like to say yes, but I’m not going to check. Too much effort to look through all my documents.
Have you tried planting greener grass?
I would if I could buy a house. 40k in the bank. Good credit. 7 years at my current job. Still can’t get a 155k house.
The 75k townhouse won’t sell, and won’t tell me why. Been trying to buy a house for 5 years. Now I’m being told I need to wait another year.
So this past month I’ve just given up. Nothing matters.
Where in the US is there a 155k house??
Crackton, Detroit.
Uhhh what? You should easily be able to get a house with that much down. There’s something you’re not telling us.
Agreed. I bought a $300k house with half that guys down-payment. I kicked myself because I easily could have bought sooner and got much more house for my money.
As someone who has 30k in the bank and qualified for multiple 350k loans with the lenders implying I’d be good for more, this mames no sense.
If it makes you feel better, I’m 100k in the hole on the one I bought in 2021, and can’t even afford to sell it.
You’re saying you don’t qualify for a mortgage?
Just install an industrial military complex in your backyard, then use it to extract lithium or oil from all the sources. Its a tried and tested method.
Time for the US military to enter and bring them democracy. Wait…
I mean, elections are right around the corner. The US military will be deployed, but it won’t be for the promotion of democracy.
LOL
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Always has been
Here’s the study in Minerals. I’ll caution that it’s an MDPI journal, but it’s better than Earth.com’s content mill dogshit.
Honest question: What’s wrong with MDPI? I’ve published in one of them, and noted that they (MDPI) have been spamming for more ever since, but other than that I haven’t heard of any issue with them.
MDPI is classified as a predatory publisher.
If you are a researcher, you shouldn’t have to ask someone for information that is readily available and particularly for that which you should already have intimate knowledge of.
- Multi-disciplinary = inexpert
- Review process = payment please
- some actual reputable journals and scientific bodies no longer use it due to previous 2 points
Yes, we should all avoid discussion with humans at all costs, and of course already know everything anyway.
Imagine not knowing something and asking a human for more information? Ew
Being a researcher, I know that the most efficient way to get more knowledge about a claim can be to ask the person making the claim. Being a lemmy-user, I recognise the value of asking the question openly so that others can read the response. I really don’t understand why you would try to make that point (in a derogatory way nonetheless …) of course I could check this myself, that’s easy. I decided to ask because
a) You might have specific reasons for claiming what you did that could be different from, or more specific than, the myriad of reasons that could show up in a search.
b) I wanted to contribute here by opening for a pleasant conversation about publishing practice.
With that said: I’m kind of surprised these points would be applied to the publisher as a whole. The fact that the publisher is multi-disciplinary doesn’t in my eyes imply that the individual journals are “inexpert” (they can still be confined to a niche). The review process is also typically run by the individual journal, so I’m a bit surprised that a blanket description of “crappy review” is applied to a publisher as a whole.
There’s nothing to discuss. You are clearly biased due to the motivation to defend the publishing body for your research.
Expert scientific bodies all over the globe, including China , Europe , had or have strong criticisms of the MDPI and for very good reasons.
It’s a paper mill where for a fee you can get published in a quarter of the time and work. Yes, the individual journals are the source of the problem but that MDPI constantly includes their crap taints the lot.
There’s nothing to discuss.
I have plenty of grievances with publishing practices that it could be nice to both discuss with peers, and discuss online on a forum where people outside the science community can both learn about what’s going on in the community and come with input from outside.
You are clearly biased due to the motivation to defend the publishing body for your research.
I’ve literally published one article in an MDPI-journal, and have exactly zero motivation to defend that journal. My work stands on its own feet, regardless where it’s been published. I haven’t even defended the publisher or the journal in my comments, so I don’t see how you can conclude that I’m motivated to do so.
Expert scientific bodies all over the globe, including China , Europe , had or have strong criticisms of the MDPI and for very good reasons.
This is what I asked you to elaborate on. Not because I think you’re wrong or have any need to prove you wrong, but because I wanted to open for a discussion around publishing practice and bad journals/publishers.
You seem to have concluded a priori that I disagree with you, and then you’re attacking me based on that. I really can’t fathom why you would do that. This could have been a pleasant conversation that both myself and others reading these comments could learn and benefit from, but you decided to make it about attacking my integrity and qualifications as a researcher.
deleted by creator
Dibs
This guy called it and I trust him more than any other corporate entity to extract it without harming the ecosystem, sooo…
The Oregon Chapter of the Sierra Club indicates they support cleaner energy but believe drilling must not come at the expense of fragile habitats.
Foreign lithium isn’t magic, zero-footprint lithium. We are a major consumer of lithium, and will probably increase if we’re going to move to BEVs. If we’re going to consume it, it only seems fair to the rest of the world to have some of the footprint in our own territory.
BEVs and energy storage needs to move on to safer battery systems. Lithium batteries have killed a lot of people already.
Lithium batteries have killed a lot of people already.
12,000 people a year die in coal mining accidents.
about 120 people a year in oil drilling.
So has oil. Probably far more than lithium ever will.
CATL has a sodium ion battery car coming out this year. Literally zero risk of thermal runaway, more resilient in extreme high and low temperatures and many more life cycles than lithium ion at a lower cost.
America is falling behind in every possible metric.
America is falling behind in every possible metric.
So that’s why they don’t use metric system?
America is falling behind hand over foot!
I was forced to bring in the imperial system back with its idiotic arbitrary measures of feets, yards, miles, pints and ounces.
There are different types of lithium batteries. LFP never killed anyone.
LPF is the safest lithium ion battery but still less safe, less performant and more expensive than CATL’s sodium-ion battery.
LPF is the safest lithium ion battery but still less safe, less performant
25% more density
100% more battery life
Lower self discharge rates
less performant
Well this is a matter of how you define “performant”.
It’s got lower energy density, which is generally considered a critical measure.
CATL sodium ion doesn’t have less energy density than LPF batteries.
It also works well at higher and lower temperatures than all lithium ion batteries. Charges faster. Safer than the safest LPF batteries. Materials are also abundant and inexpensive everywhere in the world.
Current sodium chemistries have a kinda shitty voltage curve. I expect it will get better, but right now a LOT of the power delivery happens with voltages below 3 volts. LFP batteries deliver most of their power at higher voltages which lets you use thinner conductors and cheaper/more efficient electronics.
Again, not saying that it’s necessarily an inherent flaw in sodium chemistries, just that the current generation that people can access and test right now is unsuitable for some tasks.
I think I’ll need a citation, from what I can find, the LFP chemistry still is more dense than CATL sodium, which makes sense because, well, the physics are what they are, sodium is about three times more massive than lithium. The best argument I could see on this point is debating whether there’s a space in the market between sodium and NMC for LFP (if you are already compromising on density, then what’s another further compromise to get the other qualities you mention for sodium).
LFP more energy dense, last longer (by a lot) and have lower self-discharge. Sodium are cheaper and work better in cold temps, but add significant weight to cars.
Then why isn’t everyone doing it? CATL not wanting to share?
Patents. CATL leads the world in battery R&D, while US industry leads the world in executive compensation.
CATL is one of the biggest if not the biggest battery manufacturers in the world. They sell batteries to other carmaker.
They’re due to release the first sodium ion BEV this year. I think they were building up the manufacturing capacity for that type of battery.
What happened to Drill baby drill?!
The oil companies weren’t interested in increasing supply and thus having to lower their prices.
Civil war coming!
Liberal: my electric car is so clean bro, it uses tons of lithium but that’s mined somewhere else, so it’s okay.
Geologist: Lithium deposit in your backyard.
Liberal: Not in my backyard.
Lithium is reusable like aluminum. Even if we stayed lithium batteries forever it’s fine since we wouldn’t have to mine much anymore. Most aluminum is recycled.
Assuming we keep using lithium for cars batteries, the day 90%+ of all new car batteries are recycled lithium will be a pretty cool moment. Decades away though.
That’s true for right wingers. They’ll tell you “drill, baby, drill” but then they complain when you do it in their backyard instead of the middle east or a black neighborhood.
Exactly, and they should be held to the same standard too. If you’re going to laugh at one side for saying something hypocritical, you should also laugh at the other side for saying something hypocritical as well.
There is no red, there is no blue, there is the state, and it hates you.
There is no red, there is no blue, there is the state, and it hates you.
Saving this for my next Valentine poem 😄
Lithium is not the most abundant part of a lithium ion battery, despite the name. It is very important but it is also very reusable. It can even, theoretically, be recycled. It will never be equivalent to oil. There’s just not the same incentive to start wars over the thing.
