The geopolitical realities of the time were… well, let’s put it this way: everyone in Europe that was interested in maintaining stability and discouraging war fully shit the bed.
There was no credible alliance or mutual defense pact that the Finns were able to rely on to defend against the Soviets trying to, you know, fully annex them - the UK made supportive noises, but ultimately couldn’t get their shit together to make any difference whatsoever in the Winter War. Thus, when Germany, basically the preeminent land force in Europe at the time, ultimately offered an alliance to them to deter the Soviets, it was the only offer in the table; faced with such existential threats and only one choice that wasn’t effectively an eventual full capitulation to the USSR… they chose the pragmatic option. Honestly, I see the alliance of Finland and Nazi Germany around WW2 as a very direct result of the abject failure of the League of Nations, and more pointedly, the severe lack of credibility of French and British foreign policy, political will, and military strength at the time.
That’s not to say it was a good choice; it was simply the least bad choice Finns had in front of them.
It was harm-reduction on large scale, yes. Even before the Winter War we have a long, negative history with Russia being the aggressor. So knowing it is either them genociding you, or allying with Nazis, you do what you can… Does not make it Good in any way.
Lest we not forget that the Scandanavians were also being mugged by Germany for their iron. If the Soviets had broke through the Germans would have invaded in full force to keep the iron flowing to the war effort.
Indeed. Many people don’t realize how harrowing of a balance of power the Scandinavian countries had to deal with, between the Soviets and the Nazis - again, due to the complete uselessness of the League of Nations, and how much the other European powers at the time fumbled their responses to the Anschluss and broader German expansionism and expeditionary campaigns (read: the Spanish Civil War, in which the Germans basically proved out and refined the initial concepts of Blitzkrieg / combined arms warfare) at the time. Not to mention, the German occupation of Norway during the war. It’s not a theater that has ever been strongly represented in WW2-oriented media (in the States, at least).
Edit:
On a completely unrelated note, Sisu is a banger of a film
Didn’t say they were a raving bunch of antisemitic genocidal maniacs. They weren’t by a good enough measure. You shouldn’t discount the lesser told story for it is uncomfortable though. The defense of Finland against Soviets can still be a victory, but wear the stains with awareness and context and be ashamed of what shame the is if any.
I’m getting mixed signals here. First you say Finns were not any better than the Nazis, then you say that they “weren’t a raving bunch of antisemitic genocidal maniacs” (as opposed to the Nazis, presumably).
The finns weren’t without sin. I meant it wouldn’t change that they may be guilty of war crimes. Note that there also were Wehrmacht soldiers without particularly large individual guilt.
I said these might have been some. E.g. doctors treating syphilis etc. that doesn’t mean most of all were innocent. But not everyone bears the same guilt.
People do that all the time lmao. The Nazi concentration camps were even inspired by the US prison system, and then after the war we took in a bunch of Nazi scientists.
The point though is that at one point Finland was allied with the Nazis against the Soviet Union, that’s the difference. That’s not to entirely absolve the Soviet Union invading Finland, but either way Finland was an ally of the Nazis for at least a point.
The point of the original comment in the thread though is that Finland also can’t be entirely absolved of allying with the Nazis just because they were at war with the Soviet Union.
The situation in American KZ was heinous and a key factor in why many Japanese Americans fought in the war: to get out of there. This was highlit in the museum in the aircraft carrier Hornet, I can recommend a visit if you ever are in SF.
The scientifically accurate language really gives you faith in america being on a good path. You could really tell that there are compassionate and honest and good people who want to live in a good world.
More importantly they started the Continuation War in a full alliance with the Nazis after the Holocaust was ongoing and Germany had asked them to turn over Jewish people for extermination.
Oh, just took some Karelian land, and refused to attack further, and it was to “kill or enslave every Slav on the planet”? Perhaps you should read some history, from multiple sources. It was essentially “they are occupied elsewhere, quick, lets grab back what we can, before they try another invasion”. Allying with Nazis was horrible, yes, but not knowing anything of the history between Finland and Russia (or just believing the Russian propaganda) really shows.
So, you think fighting against an invader is genociding? Do you support Russia invading Ukraine perchance? Of course it was fucking bad, I did not claim allying with damn nazis is a good thing, nor fighting a war. History is not black and white. Throwing around classic Russian propaganda accusations of genocide, tells me of an acute lack of historical knowledge, of geopolitics of the area. Either that, or another propagandist.
They might just be Finnish. Which wouldn’t make it any better since they did learn strategy etc. from Nazis.
The geopolitical realities of the time were… well, let’s put it this way: everyone in Europe that was interested in maintaining stability and discouraging war fully shit the bed.
There was no credible alliance or mutual defense pact that the Finns were able to rely on to defend against the Soviets trying to, you know, fully annex them - the UK made supportive noises, but ultimately couldn’t get their shit together to make any difference whatsoever in the Winter War. Thus, when Germany, basically the preeminent land force in Europe at the time, ultimately offered an alliance to them to deter the Soviets, it was the only offer in the table; faced with such existential threats and only one choice that wasn’t effectively an eventual full capitulation to the USSR… they chose the pragmatic option. Honestly, I see the alliance of Finland and Nazi Germany around WW2 as a very direct result of the abject failure of the League of Nations, and more pointedly, the severe lack of credibility of French and British foreign policy, political will, and military strength at the time.
That’s not to say it was a good choice; it was simply the least bad choice Finns had in front of them.
It was harm-reduction on large scale, yes. Even before the Winter War we have a long, negative history with Russia being the aggressor. So knowing it is either them genociding you, or allying with Nazis, you do what you can… Does not make it Good in any way.
Lest we not forget that the Scandanavians were also being mugged by Germany for their iron. If the Soviets had broke through the Germans would have invaded in full force to keep the iron flowing to the war effort.
Indeed. Many people don’t realize how harrowing of a balance of power the Scandinavian countries had to deal with, between the Soviets and the Nazis - again, due to the complete uselessness of the League of Nations, and how much the other European powers at the time fumbled their responses to the Anschluss and broader German expansionism and expeditionary campaigns (read: the Spanish Civil War, in which the Germans basically proved out and refined the initial concepts of Blitzkrieg / combined arms warfare) at the time. Not to mention, the German occupation of Norway during the war. It’s not a theater that has ever been strongly represented in WW2-oriented media (in the States, at least).
Edit:
On a completely unrelated note, Sisu is a banger of a film
a false equivalence almost on the level of nazi apologia
Didn’t say they were a raving bunch of antisemitic genocidal maniacs. They weren’t by a good enough measure. You shouldn’t discount the lesser told story for it is uncomfortable though. The defense of Finland against Soviets can still be a victory, but wear the stains with awareness and context and be ashamed of what shame the is if any.
I’m getting mixed signals here. First you say Finns were not any better than the Nazis, then you say that they “weren’t a raving bunch of antisemitic genocidal maniacs” (as opposed to the Nazis, presumably).
The finns weren’t without sin. I meant it wouldn’t change that they may be guilty of war crimes. Note that there also were Wehrmacht soldiers without particularly large individual guilt.
Cutting awfully close to the clean Wehrmacht myth there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht
I said these might have been some. E.g. doctors treating syphilis etc. that doesn’t mean most of all were innocent. But not everyone bears the same guilt.
I think they were saying you aren’t being hard enough of the finnish, not the other way around
I mean the US also put people in concentration camps but nobody’s making an equivalence between the US and Nazi Germany…
People do that all the time lmao. The Nazi concentration camps were even inspired by the US prison system, and then after the war we took in a bunch of Nazi scientists.
Yeah but people are not saying fighting for the US in WWII was the same as fighting for Nazi Germany because both had concentration camps.
The point though is that at one point Finland was allied with the Nazis against the Soviet Union, that’s the difference. That’s not to entirely absolve the Soviet Union invading Finland, but either way Finland was an ally of the Nazis for at least a point.
Also, see Geopolitical status in Northern Europe in November 1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#/media/File:Northern_europe_november_1939.png
Yeah, and any implication that it would is crazy.
The point of the original comment in the thread though is that Finland also can’t be entirely absolved of allying with the Nazis just because they were at war with the Soviet Union.
The situation in American KZ was heinous and a key factor in why many Japanese Americans fought in the war: to get out of there. This was highlit in the museum in the aircraft carrier Hornet, I can recommend a visit if you ever are in SF.
The scientifically accurate language really gives you faith in america being on a good path. You could really tell that there are compassionate and honest and good people who want to live in a good world.
Kazakhstan mentioned 🔥💪🇰🇿
If by strategy you mean lots of amphetamines
More importantly they started the Continuation War in a full alliance with the Nazis after the Holocaust was ongoing and Germany had asked them to turn over Jewish people for extermination.
Which they did not do at scale. Doesn’t mean they didn’t learn from them.
Oh, they only handed a few Jews over before joining the war to kill or enslave every Slav on the planet, very understandable.
Oh, just took some Karelian land, and refused to attack further, and it was to “kill or enslave every Slav on the planet”? Perhaps you should read some history, from multiple sources. It was essentially “they are occupied elsewhere, quick, lets grab back what we can, before they try another invasion”. Allying with Nazis was horrible, yes, but not knowing anything of the history between Finland and Russia (or just believing the Russian propaganda) really shows.
Hey look, it’s a genocide apologist so much of a modern bigot he can’t even say “yeah that was pretty fucking bad but we don’t do that anymore”
Most likely because he’d do it again.
So, you think fighting against an invader is genociding? Do you support Russia invading Ukraine perchance? Of course it was fucking bad, I did not claim allying with damn nazis is a good thing, nor fighting a war. History is not black and white. Throwing around classic Russian propaganda accusations of genocide, tells me of an acute lack of historical knowledge, of geopolitics of the area. Either that, or another propagandist.