I’m nonbinary, it’s not enby erasure. It actually upsets me way more that some people seem to think this is enby erasure because idk the one saying “Abolish gender” looks feminine I guess? Because it you were to look at me on the street without context your first guess would literally be that I’m a cis man. So am I suddenly less valid of an enby because I’m 6’2" tall, built like a fridge cosplaying Bigfoot and have zero idea what I would even want out of transition?
By the logic you’re employing here decrying enby erasure you would literally commit enby erasure. We don’t owe anyone androgyny.
To my eyes, both characters appear to be drawn in an extremely feminine manner.
If anybody wants to both present themselves and behave in an entirely binary manner, but feels differently on the inside, then that’s entirely valid … I think most of us have at least struggled with that at some point, if not for most of our lives.
But that’s not something being shown or described in this comment. There are rafts of comics depicting binary people, so from that the comic seems at best to be lazy or perhaps thoughtless.
Well the text isn’t the original text of the comic.
But as a (usually) femme-presenting enby, I could easily be either of those people depending on the day, and i’m still just as nonbinary.
There’s no wrong way to be nonbinary.
Edit to add:
I see and kind of agree with your point, but not with how you chose to state it.
We do need better enby representation, and limiting ourselves to characters who could easily pass as cis is bad. But that doesn’t mean that someone can’t take a comic that wasn’t initially about being nonbinary and make the characters nonbinary if they want to, since there’s no wrong way to be nonbinary.
There would also be nothing wrong with an original character who is nonbinary but looks stereotypically femme, assuming it came from an authentic place.
I don’t care how you perceive the characters. You are basically saying “They can’t be nonbinary, they’re too feminine,” which again means you’re literally by the same logic calling people like me invalid.
Nonbinary people don’t owe you androgyny and nonbinary characters can look like literally anyone and be nonbinary. They can look androgynous, like the most femme cis woman, the manliest cis man, or any combination thereof.
So, to be clear, you’re saying that someone who is happy to present as their gender assigned at birth, behave like their gender assigned at birth, who doesn’t feel dysphoria, and is socialised as their gender assigned at birth can be non-binary?
Why would I think that anyone owes me androgyny? I just think that if someone is shown as living a happy life in a specifically binary manner, they aren’t representative of enbies.
Who’s to say what it means to present as or behave like a certain gender? To what extent does one need to conform in order to be considered conforming? Why is anything gendered at all? Does the rejection of gender as a whole not fall under the same umbrella as non-binary?
All interesting questions … my comment you’re replying to was pretty shit, but you’re adding good depth.
I’d say that enby is a catch-all term, and rejecting gender altogether is (or can be/should be) included in that.
Given the context of how people in most western societies grow up, especially those of us who were punished for not following gender norms, it’s pretty easy to come up with a list of things which are considered typical, and where a threshold for being considered definitely of a binary gender would be for their society.
So now you’re assuming I don’t feel dysphoria and just do things outside of my outward gender presentation to deal with it?
I do not identify with being male. Being perceived as male gives me a lot of dysphoria. But crucially with me being built like Bigfoot, going for androgyny makes feel like “Bigfoot in Drag” and makes me feel like I’m calling more attention to the fact that I was assigned male at birth than just continuing with the male presentation. Especially when I don’t know what precisely I want out of transition.
So yes, the thing that helps my dysphoria most is keeping my identity “for me” and the people close to me. Having them treat me like “hey I know you look like a man, but I know you’re not one,” and doing things “for me” that affirm my identity. Also I find it hilarious that you’re telling A FUCKING NONBINARY PERSON that they’re not a good example of being an enby because they’re presenting as their AGAB yet in the same breath basically agreeing that we don’t owe anyone androgyny. Which is it? Am in only valid being AMAB if I’m presenting femme or androgynous? Is masc presentation only allowed for AFAB enbies? Kinda sounds like you’re saying we’re only valid if we present the “right way” for you.
You’re talking about a “female looking character” who is seemingly “presenting as their AGAB” as being nonbinary erasure. I am a real live AMAB person who is presenting as my AGAB, how does what you are saying not apply to me? Or any other nonbinary person who presents close to their AGAB?
By calling it “enby erasure” to have a feminine looking character being implied to be nonbinary you are directly implying that anyone that presents “too far” to one side or the other is not “enby enough” or in other words, invalid. How is that different from saying that we “Owe you androgyny?” Oh we don’t owe you androgyny, but if we present too far to one side or the other we get told we’re not actually nonbinary. How is that different? If you’re going to say that someone presenting too feminine is “enby erasure” how does that not equate to trying to enforce androgyny for enbies to be valid?
I’m betting that wasn’t your intent but I’m trying to get your to see the reality that you constantly doubling down on this is insane. There’s no “right way” to be nonbinary and you can look like literally anyone. Your insistence that just because this person looks very feminine or masculine that they can’t possibly be nonbinary is just plain wrong.
Because I was talking about 2 dimensional characters in a cartoon (which I now understand was not originally drawn to be about enbies, but didn’t realise at the time) … you are a 3 dimensional person with your own thoughts and feelings.
You took my comment regarding erasure, which came from my feelings, and wanted to shame me into silence. So of course I lashed out, because I’m not always emotionally mature.
I feel crushed under the weight of everything in mainstream media being hyper binary, so when I see a meme about enbies that presents people as being androgynous it’s like rain to a desert flower. Seeing a meme talking about gender diversity with two images of idealised hyper binary characters has the opposite effect.
Lesson learned. Next time I see something that upsets me, I’ll be good and not say anything.
So, to be clear, you’re saying that someone who is happy to present as their gender assigned at birth, behave like their gender assigned at birth, who doesn’t feel dysphoria, and is socialised as their gender assigned at birth can be non-binary?
Where are you getting all this info from? From the perspective of the comic, ignoring that it’s a meme comic, there’s no way to tell what gender either character was assigned at birth, let alone any of the other details. Either one could’ve been AMAB, and the second one is at least a former cutter based on the scars (the shoulder is a popular location because it doesn’t show when you wear a t-shirt). Was that from dysphoria? Who knows, they didn’t tell us. Edit: just went back and realized those are folds in the sleeve of their shirt, not scars. This image needs more pixels.
From a broader perspective: …yes? To be considered a certain gender you only need to identify as that gender. There are no other requirements. You don’t need to act a certain way, look a certain way, or even have dysphoria. Is a trans woman who’s in the closet not a woman? If they identify as a woman, they’re a woman. If they identify as nonbinary, then they’re nonbinary.
The dysphoria one is also a big one for me, so I’m gonna talk about it specifically just in case it helps someone who happens to read this: you don’t need to have dysphoria in order to be trans. You don’t. If you’re happy as your AGAB but feel like you’d be happier as another gender, then go ahead and transition. Or don’t. Or only go as far as makes you happy. Because at the end of the day, it’s about being comfortable in your own skin.
So many trans people think “well, I didn’t have dysphoria as a kid so I can’t be trans” or some variation of that thought, only to transition and either find out that, yes, they did experience dysphoria and just couldn’t tell because it was their normal everyday experience, or experience the more important gender euphoria after they transition.
I’m nonbinary, no it’s not erasure. We do not owe anyone androgyny. If you saw me on the street your first thought would be that I’m a cis man. Am I suddenly not a valid enby because I’m 6’2" built like a fridge cosplaying Bigfoot, and have zero idea what I would even want out of transition? That makes my identity less valid and somehow “erasure” in fact?
absolutely valid and ok that u do not want to present like that but to underline the point, that enbies can indeed want to look however and can even present very feminin: my prefered appearance is exactly that. there is no one nonbinary appearance.
i do wish there were more androgynous representation around
Of course people can present how they want, or how they need to in order to survive, and will still be valid. This comic didn’t give me that impression.
Big ditto on wanting androgynous representation … or blending outside of the binary representation!
Yeah, it’s a nice idea but feels like enby erasure
I’m nonbinary, it’s not enby erasure. It actually upsets me way more that some people seem to think this is enby erasure because idk the one saying “Abolish gender” looks feminine I guess? Because it you were to look at me on the street without context your first guess would literally be that I’m a cis man. So am I suddenly less valid of an enby because I’m 6’2" tall, built like a fridge cosplaying Bigfoot and have zero idea what I would even want out of transition?
By the logic you’re employing here decrying enby erasure you would literally commit enby erasure. We don’t owe anyone androgyny.
To my eyes, both characters appear to be drawn in an extremely feminine manner.
If anybody wants to both present themselves and behave in an entirely binary manner, but feels differently on the inside, then that’s entirely valid … I think most of us have at least struggled with that at some point, if not for most of our lives.
But that’s not something being shown or described in this comment. There are rafts of comics depicting binary people, so from that the comic seems at best to be lazy or perhaps thoughtless.
Well the text isn’t the original text of the comic.
But as a (usually) femme-presenting enby, I could easily be either of those people depending on the day, and i’m still just as nonbinary.
There’s no wrong way to be nonbinary.
Edit to add:
I see and kind of agree with your point, but not with how you chose to state it.
We do need better enby representation, and limiting ourselves to characters who could easily pass as cis is bad. But that doesn’t mean that someone can’t take a comic that wasn’t initially about being nonbinary and make the characters nonbinary if they want to, since there’s no wrong way to be nonbinary.
There would also be nothing wrong with an original character who is nonbinary but looks stereotypically femme, assuming it came from an authentic place.
Ah ok, I thought it was an original comic
Point taken, and thank you for not being an ass over a difference of opinion!
I don’t care how you perceive the characters. You are basically saying “They can’t be nonbinary, they’re too feminine,” which again means you’re literally by the same logic calling people like me invalid.
Nonbinary people don’t owe you androgyny and nonbinary characters can look like literally anyone and be nonbinary. They can look androgynous, like the most femme cis woman, the manliest cis man, or any combination thereof.
So, to be clear, you’re saying that someone who is happy to present as their gender assigned at birth, behave like their gender assigned at birth, who doesn’t feel dysphoria, and is socialised as their gender assigned at birth can be non-binary?
Why would I think that anyone owes me androgyny? I just think that if someone is shown as living a happy life in a specifically binary manner, they aren’t representative of enbies.
Who’s to say what it means to present as or behave like a certain gender? To what extent does one need to conform in order to be considered conforming? Why is anything gendered at all? Does the rejection of gender as a whole not fall under the same umbrella as non-binary?
All interesting questions … my comment you’re replying to was pretty shit, but you’re adding good depth.
I’d say that enby is a catch-all term, and rejecting gender altogether is (or can be/should be) included in that.
Given the context of how people in most western societies grow up, especially those of us who were punished for not following gender norms, it’s pretty easy to come up with a list of things which are considered typical, and where a threshold for being considered definitely of a binary gender would be for their society.
So now you’re assuming I don’t feel dysphoria and just do things outside of my outward gender presentation to deal with it?
I do not identify with being male. Being perceived as male gives me a lot of dysphoria. But crucially with me being built like Bigfoot, going for androgyny makes feel like “Bigfoot in Drag” and makes me feel like I’m calling more attention to the fact that I was assigned male at birth than just continuing with the male presentation. Especially when I don’t know what precisely I want out of transition.
So yes, the thing that helps my dysphoria most is keeping my identity “for me” and the people close to me. Having them treat me like “hey I know you look like a man, but I know you’re not one,” and doing things “for me” that affirm my identity. Also I find it hilarious that you’re telling A FUCKING NONBINARY PERSON that they’re not a good example of being an enby because they’re presenting as their AGAB yet in the same breath basically agreeing that we don’t owe anyone androgyny. Which is it? Am in only valid being AMAB if I’m presenting femme or androgynous? Is masc presentation only allowed for AFAB enbies? Kinda sounds like you’re saying we’re only valid if we present the “right way” for you.
I wasn’t talking about you. Why would I be talking about you?
You’re talking about a “female looking character” who is seemingly “presenting as their AGAB” as being nonbinary erasure. I am a real live AMAB person who is presenting as my AGAB, how does what you are saying not apply to me? Or any other nonbinary person who presents close to their AGAB?
By calling it “enby erasure” to have a feminine looking character being implied to be nonbinary you are directly implying that anyone that presents “too far” to one side or the other is not “enby enough” or in other words, invalid. How is that different from saying that we “Owe you androgyny?” Oh we don’t owe you androgyny, but if we present too far to one side or the other we get told we’re not actually nonbinary. How is that different? If you’re going to say that someone presenting too feminine is “enby erasure” how does that not equate to trying to enforce androgyny for enbies to be valid?
I’m betting that wasn’t your intent but I’m trying to get your to see the reality that you constantly doubling down on this is insane. There’s no “right way” to be nonbinary and you can look like literally anyone. Your insistence that just because this person looks very feminine or masculine that they can’t possibly be nonbinary is just plain wrong.
Because I was talking about 2 dimensional characters in a cartoon (which I now understand was not originally drawn to be about enbies, but didn’t realise at the time) … you are a 3 dimensional person with your own thoughts and feelings.
You took my comment regarding erasure, which came from my feelings, and wanted to shame me into silence. So of course I lashed out, because I’m not always emotionally mature.
I feel crushed under the weight of everything in mainstream media being hyper binary, so when I see a meme about enbies that presents people as being androgynous it’s like rain to a desert flower. Seeing a meme talking about gender diversity with two images of idealised hyper binary characters has the opposite effect.
Lesson learned. Next time I see something that upsets me, I’ll be good and not say anything.
Where are you getting all this info from? From the perspective of the comic, ignoring that it’s a meme comic, there’s no way to tell what gender either character was assigned at birth, let alone any of the other details. Either one could’ve been AMAB, and the second one is at least a former cutter based on the scars (the shoulder is a popular location because it doesn’t show when you wear a t-shirt). Was that from dysphoria? Who knows, they didn’t tell us. Edit: just went back and realized those are folds in the sleeve of their shirt, not scars. This image needs more pixels.
From a broader perspective: …yes? To be considered a certain gender you only need to identify as that gender. There are no other requirements. You don’t need to act a certain way, look a certain way, or even have dysphoria. Is a trans woman who’s in the closet not a woman? If they identify as a woman, they’re a woman. If they identify as nonbinary, then they’re nonbinary.
The dysphoria one is also a big one for me, so I’m gonna talk about it specifically just in case it helps someone who happens to read this: you don’t need to have dysphoria in order to be trans. You don’t. If you’re happy as your AGAB but feel like you’d be happier as another gender, then go ahead and transition. Or don’t. Or only go as far as makes you happy. Because at the end of the day, it’s about being comfortable in your own skin.
So many trans people think “well, I didn’t have dysphoria as a kid so I can’t be trans” or some variation of that thought, only to transition and either find out that, yes, they did experience dysphoria and just couldn’t tell because it was their normal everyday experience, or experience the more important gender euphoria after they transition.
ok, that’s fair - change “gender assigned at birth” to “either traditional binary gender”
Can enby not present feminine?
It does come across as erasure…
I’m nonbinary, no it’s not erasure. We do not owe anyone androgyny. If you saw me on the street your first thought would be that I’m a cis man. Am I suddenly not a valid enby because I’m 6’2" built like a fridge cosplaying Bigfoot, and have zero idea what I would even want out of transition? That makes my identity less valid and somehow “erasure” in fact?
Given that it’s a catch-all term, I suppose so … from my perspective it would feel like cross-dressing.
absolutely valid and ok that u do not want to present like that but to underline the point, that enbies can indeed want to look however and can even present very feminin: my prefered appearance is exactly that. there is no one nonbinary appearance.
i do wish there were more androgynous representation around
Of course people can present how they want, or how they need to in order to survive, and will still be valid. This comic didn’t give me that impression.
Big ditto on wanting androgynous representation … or blending outside of the binary representation!