This is gonna piss some people (men) off, I can already tell…
This is an excellent point and I think it demonstrates really well what people mean by “all men”
Even tho I love men as much as the next straight girl…bear for me, please
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Ackchyually all lives matter.
Ackchyually not all cops are bastards.
Anti-tankies, clean up your Nazi bar.
I don’t get it, honestly.
The answer is yes, among a group of boys that my daughter decided were safe enough to be around, most of them would absolutely intervene.
Everyone acting like somehow most men are sneaky predators who will slip their dick in the minute no one is watching. The vast majority of men would absolutely intervene.
The hesitation is an entirely natural and appropriate risk assessment.
Me: Would you let your daughter drive on a country road at night?
Him: (hesitates)
The answer is yes, among a group of boys that my daughter decided were safe enough to be around
This is such an important distinction. Thank you for calling it out.
You’re using the same argument racist southerners use against black Americans
It’s not all men, in the same way that not all racoons have rabies.
If you get bitten by a racoons, are you going to say “not all racoons”, or are you going to get a rabies shot?
“Not all men, but enough that you need to treat it like it’s all men” doesn’t quite have the same ring to it.
If you get bitten by a racoons, are you going to say “not all racoons”, or are you going to get a rabies shot?
Get a shot, because a raccoon that bit you is overwhelmingly likely to be rabid.
“Not all men, but enough that you need to treat it like it’s all men” doesn’t quite have the same ring to it.
You don’t need to though. You choose to based on your own experiences and biases. When someone says it’s not all men they are basing that on their experiences and biases.
Neither “men” nor “women” are a monolith.
There are some boys who would step in, but they aren’t likely to be at those sorts of parties to begin with.
Yes, it becomes a bit of a tautology almost. “Not all men, just the ones that are those type of man and the ones ok with hanging around those type of man”.
There’s this problem with “not all men, but always a man” where making it an absolute makes it literally not true and so there’s pushback from people who you actually want to bring on board. It’s that fine line of creating a pithy slogan that’s inflammatory/engaging enough to spread but hopefully not too inaccurate as to undermine the message. “Not literally always a man but a depressingly high number because all you’d need is one counter example in all of human history to disprove it and those are happening daily just at far lower rates than what we’re trying to bring attention to” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
“Black lives matter” really could’ve been “Black lives matter too” and I think it would’ve had much more goodwill and broad agreement, but probably wouldn’t have been as viral either.
Yep. Part of being a feminist/ally/non-bigot/whatever is resisting the temptation to “um ackchyually” stuff like that too much, even when it hurts or seems unfair.
This is the same reason nobody in the group chat in the cornell case spoke up, everyone in it was almost certainly already known to be trusted to not speak up about such things, or be actively interested. Nobody that would have told the authorities would have been allowed in, even though many guys (likely even a decent amount of college frat guys) would have spoken up if they were in the chat. They would never have been invited in the first place
I think you’re right. And…that’s just brutal, honestly
Yep. I wonder if that’s another reason why things like online-centric relationships have become more common since people who could be bullied or intimidated for not following the crowd can interact with others in a safer way.
Stuff like this disappointing. It is frustrating to feel that how I was born makes me something to be feared.
Are we better to live in a society where women fear all men? Is it even possible to change society in a way where even some men are considered “safe”?
I just want to point out that the sexual assault by women on men is not properly documented and studied anywhere. Yes, it happens, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation if the true numbers were public knowledge. This one-sided vilification is the result of one-sided counting.
I don’t feel like we make it better by also trying to fear women. I also don’t want to make it so folks are just giving up on vigilance because everyone is bad.
Some people have a very good sense of when people or situations are dangerous and other folks do not have that. I think what I’d ideally want is to help figure out how to identify that and maybe even improve it for folks in safe and healthy ways?
RAINN tracks sexual assaults of all victims. Please don’t spread misinformation.
It is underreported for sure, just like all sexual violence cases, but it is tracked and it is important for men’s and boy’s voices and stories to be heard.
Sexual violence against men and boys is often overlooked, but police files show that it happens across multiple types of reported sex crimes.
Nationwide, in 11% of reported rapes, the victim is male.
Every survivor deserves to be recognized, believed, and supported. Naming sexual violence against men and boys helps make sure fewer survivors are left out of the conversation.
18% of U.S. men experience verbal sexual harassment at work or in public during their lifetimes.
The harm may not always be visible, but it can still affect a person’s sense of safety, dignity, trust, and control. 14
Some trans people, I call them the “menu” type, are able to get around the “all men” phenomenon. Good for them. They get to live a life without the wall, but when they encounter the part of society that doesn’t accept trans people they get stamped out first, because it’s clear that they were doing this for a non-aesthetic reason, i.e the experience of friendship. The trans men of this type get exempted from ‘all men’ because women are inherently inconsistent about this framing, and the trans women and nonbinaries of this type get to experience a normal life until something bad happens.
Similarly, and from the other side, the lesbian has the ability to adopt an aesthetic that signals she doesn’t fear anything, and this can quickly land her in a male friend group if she desires it.
I was going to post this as a reply, but I decided to make it a top comment since it’s more a comment about the post itself.
I am not gonna be the best at explaining myself, and I am feeling hurt from this so I am a bit emotional, but here goes.
I try my best to be an ally. I speak up when things aren’t right or people are uncomfortable wherever I am. I haven’t been in any real situations where I have had to physically intervene, but that’s more because I am a homebody and I don’t generally go to clubs or parties where I don’t know anyone.
I do hurt from this, so I don’t like how you assume I wouldn’t. I don’t believe I am in the group that is meant by “all men”, because I have done the right thing in the past. However, that doesn’t stop it from hurting.
What I interpret from the posted meme is that there is no room for discussion. All men are bad no matter what. I understand the point being made that any one random man has a greater than 50/50 chance to be bad and that the stakes are too high to take a chance.
What I understand from reading this post and it’s conversation in general is that I need to continue being an ally, but that when I see anyone say “all men” I just need to shut up and accept it.
I’m not going to stop being an ally or doing the right thing just because it hurts, but I will stop talking about it since it just comes of as comparing traumas which I don’t want to do or be seen as doing. I will say it does make me want to talk less about my feelings in general though.
I just wanted to put what I feel about this out there so I can let it go. I don’t want or intend for anyone to think I am making this about me, or that men have it as bad as women in any way. Sorry for posting this I guess.
It’s sort of like police. ACAB. One apple ruins the bunch. Occasionally there will be a good news story of a cop doing something good. That’s like 1 in 1000 stories. So until otherwise proven, ACAB.
The same allegory applies to men. Every woman had a story about being SAed. I literally have not met a woman that doesn’t have an SA story. I don’t meet many men who have an “I stopped my bros from SAing a woman”.
It’s usually, I walked away. Or, I cut him off. Woman hear this as “you silently accepted the behavior”.
When I was in my 20s, I worked in the nightclubs for a club crawl place. Some of the guys running the clubs had alleged (read: definitely had) criminal (drug cartel) connections.
One of the women I worked with was getting manhandled by the South American manager at one of the clubs. She did not want it at all, and was protesting. I was a skinny uni student, half his size. She looked at me and said, “[Zen], help!”
Now this guy terrified me. I knew he was connected and if he was willing to sexually assault a woman in public, in a club, what else was he willing to do? In addition, I had heard of guys being taken into the back rooms of the club and beaten. This was his club. They had control of the CCTV cameras. If anything happened, their narrative would be the winning narrative.
But I wasn’t going to back down, because the poor woman needed help. I got in his face but tried to stay polite about it; “Listen, mate. I have a great amount of respect for you, but you can’t be doing that okay?”
He was amused, and let her go. It was funny in hindsight, how much of a coward I was. Haha. Thank fuck. I was terrified. I can only imagine what she must have felt. These days I’m more willing to call out bad behaviour. The fear of being killed is primal and right there for me.
I did some self-reflecting. Why did I have to be asked to step in? Why did I not grab some other dudes to back myself up, “Hey guys, that guy is sexually assaulting that woman, let’s go talk to him”. If we want a decent society, we need to have the balls to call out bad behaviour.
Thanks (/s) for promoting the manosphere and a female only lgbt movement. This is exactly how you divide people and radicalise them on generalisations.
a female only lgbt movement.
It’s not just women and girls that are raped. Men and boys and enbies are raped, too. And most rapists are men.
The manosphere exists despite people talking about our rape culture. We shouldn’t stop just because some men might traffic and rape and beat us more.
And most rapists are men.
Yes, but not all and not all men are rapists. It’s almost like use of generalizations quells discourse and drives division.
It’s almost like I didn’t use generalizations very specifically and yet you’re still getting after me about it.
Cool.
I wasn’t “getting after” you, I was reinforcing the other, actually valid, point you seemed to ignore from the comment you replied to.
This is exactly how you divide people and radicalise them on generalisations.
Which in turn was directly relevant to the OP and the topic.
Maybe take a couple deep breaths and calm down.
Maybe take a couple deep breaths and calm down.
Yeah I’m spinning out over here, crashing and burning everything in sight. /s
Gonna call me hysterical next?
The problem with any content like this is that it’s basically a scissor statement (or like “the dress”). It’s optimized for engagement through strategic ambiguity. (Not that the author necessarily consciously chose that, but platforms certainly encourage it.)
If you’re a woman looking at that, you resolve the ambiguity in favor of “this is talking about cultural forces that — though their exact nature is an accident of history — reliably act upon every single member of the culture who is socialized as a man”.
And if you’re a man looking at the same text, you resolve the ambiguity more like “this is taking a biologically essentialist view of social behavior that is actually entirely contingent on the individual, their history, their environment, and a dozen other variables”.
Both of those are fair opinions, whose opposing side is very difficult to defend. But they’re two entirely different conversations, and when you prime people to have one of those two conversations and then stick them in the same room, nothing productive will come of it.
Part of the issue is that the thought experiment set out in this post doesn’t quite work to demonstrate what it claims. To prove the hard claim, the father would have to be allowed to choose which men are at this party.
To prove the hard claim, the father would have to be allowed to choose which men are at this party.
I know you didn’t mean to, but this went so dark so fast when I read it.
Boo-yah! I’m losing a friend because every conversation involves misunderstandings from living in two seperate realities of fact, and the misunderstandings only make sense later once we figure out which facts we disagree on; the only remedy I know involves getting clarification before asuming the worse interpretation.
I feel ya. When I was in a similar situation, I happened to listen to this and it helped me tremendously: https://youarenotsosmart.com/2018/12/17/yanss-143-how-to-talk-to-people-about-things/
As a Bi M I say yes=> all men.
And that’s not me raising my hand going “I’m a piece of shit”.
That’s me choosing not to argue the point because=> I wouldn’t want to diminish the point being made about the men that ARE pieces of shit. Which are quite a lot.
“Ooh check that out.” “Did you get to sneak a look?” “I wouldn’t mind some of that!”
All disgusting rhetoric I get to hear nearly daily.
Your contribution is invaluable (not sarcasm) Thank you for this comment <3
You’re reaction to them gives them control of the situation. You’re unknowingly backing a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s ‘best intentions’ I was just repeating what I was told, but from another POV.
Kinda feels like you’ve never been responsible for children before, and your scripted scene here isn’t what you think it is. So many assumptions made to serve a nonconstructive point that doesn’t really help anything except your ego. We all see this for what it is, you’re not clever.
I wouldn’t let my son or daughter hang out with a bunch of people I don’t know, period. Maybe the men I grew up with weren’t as rapey as you think, because one girl and several guys was a common thing you saw everyday. Even so, I would be as suspicious of my son hanging out with a bunch of girls, as I would my daughter with boys. What are other parent’s going to make up in their heads, hankey-pankey, I can’t tell if a girl is a positive or negative influence like I can tell in a guy. It just stands to reason there are so many simple explanations as to why your point is, other than men are rapists. Don’t most male rapists rape other men anyway? Occams razor wept.
Looking forward to the hate.
Don’t most male rapists rape other men anyway?
Most rapists are men and they rape women, children, and other men.
You’re not saying I’m wrong. So, what is your point? This sounds like a rationalization gone awry.
I was clarifying your question there. Male rapists overwhelmingly rape women, but they do rape children and other men as well.
I though more men got raped in prison that actually had, my bad. Have a good one.
I was AMAB. I was still a boy when I was going through high school and college. I’d absolutely intervene if someone wasn’t being treated right. I did back then. I’d let some hypothetical kid go to a party with all boys because either I know those kids or I’m going to be there with her.
I’m not saying all this for a congratulations, I don’t give a rat’s ass what y’all think of me. I just want boys to have voices out there in communities like ours saying “it’s okay, you’re welcome here too if you don’t like what those redpilled losers are saying”, because I wish I had it when I was young.
I didn’t know I wished I had this as a child, until you wrote it out.
So… I guess you should keep broadcasting, and I should speak the fuck up.
I just want boys to have voices out there in communities like ours saying “it’s okay, you’re welcome here too if you don’t like what those redpilled losers are saying”, because I wish I had it when I was young.
Thank you so much for making this comment <3
wait, do you not want to debate me on the validity or importance of what I’ve written? you’ve done so for almost everyone else
I don’t disagree with men because they’re men. I agree with your comment and appreciate the call out to boys and men that they don’t have to lean into the patriarchy to belong somewhere.
I leave supportive comments, too hahah
I did say debate, not disagree. I’m not sure what’s in your mind.
and I wasn’t expecting you to disagree because I’m a man, I haven’t been one for a while now lol
Oh I wasn’t calling you a man, sorry if that wasn’t clear - I was referring to the “everyone else” that I was “debating”.
Oftentimes my debates around here are seen as disagreements and sometimes they are shrug
I want to believe that at least some of the people defending men are not-men. I have a lot of wonderful men in my family who deserve that grace.
I can respect that, no sense in agreeing with everything you see, especially if it’s an injustice that deserves scrutiny
I want to believe that at least some of the people defending men are not-men. I have a lot of wonderful men in my family who deserve that grace.
That’s my belief as well and same feelings about the wonderful men in my life. I’m not assuming everyone here is a man just some users whose names I recognize, again just to be clear :)
You know posts like this annoy the hell out of me because people with this mindset put identity before character, and I really hate when that is somebody’s list of priorities.
Before coming out as trans, people ditched me when I was mentally unwell. I’d done more than enough to prove the kind of character I have, but say one stupid blanket statement about women in a severe depressive episode, and people treat me as a dangerous man. This despite the fact that I’ve been open about how the women in my life to that point had either abused me, severely betrayed my trust, or both.
Then I come out as trans and suddenly now the full context of what happened then is understood by others? It’s frustrating as hell and makes me feel extremely tokenised. Like wow guys, feels fantastic that I’m being judged by how I identify and not by the merit of my actions or the circumstances I’ve grown from.
You know posts like this annoy the hell out of me because people with this mindset put identity before character, and I really hate when that is somebody’s list of priorities.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Unfortunately you can’t make sweeping generalizations and perpetuate a negative stereotype if you put character ahead of identity.
BTW I’m sorry that you had a rough time. It’s not morally correct nor fair.
This is an excellent point
If you create hypotetical scenarios and arbitrarily decide how things go, with nothing to back it up, then yes.
will the other boys step in?
In my anecdotal experience, yes. So now is my word against yours, both of us unable to back it up.
Men have repeatedly shown they not only won’t step in, they’ll make excuses for the men who give men a terrible reputation as a gender.
And to clarify, obviously not all men. But enough that it’s the predominant opinion of a lot of women. Pretty fucking damning if you ask me.
In my anecdotal experience, yes. So now is my word against yours, both of us unable to back it up.
There were 50 men in that Cornell group chat that did nothing when their frat brothers were raping Jane Doe.
Right, but then they give an example of a time where a man DID step in. I can think of an incident where something happened in a parking lot between a man and a woman, another man stepped in to see if things were OK and was shot and later died.
Pulling up news stories is great for trying to back up your arguments but not so much in getting people to see another perspective.
Instead of this black and white “all men vs not all men” arguement, I wish people could understand that sometimes it can be incredibly difficult to do the right thing, and in the most extreme case it could cost you your life. People seem to think it’s so easy to “just do the right thing”. It’s not. It’s SIMPLE, not easy. It’s a subtle yet huge difference.
